phd m.degree 300 k down

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PHD M.Degree 400 K custom-made review

Overall Rating

: 4 out of 5

Pros: warmth, custom-fit and custom-made, weight

Cons: Price

Manufacturer:

The phd m.degree 400 k custom-made bags are for those who demand the best warmth-to-weight ratio, and who are prepared to pay for it, says fiona russell..

The PHD M.Degree 400k sleeping bag appeared on our guide to the Best sleeping bag for hiking . PHD makes all of its sleeping bags from start to finish in a UK factory. The company sources more than 95% of materials and components within Europe and minimises global transportation. The down is ethically sourced by PHD itself. This goes some way to explain the fairly eye-watering price of the PHD M.Degree 400 K custom-made, but it’s also a fully custom-made bag. As such, it fits me like a glove in width, length and at my feet.

Price: £882 | Weight: 560g (Standard Custom Made) Materials: 1000 fill power European goose down; shell and liner: 7X ripstop nylon with DWR | Temperature: comfort -9C | Features:  Customised to suit customer size and needs; choice of four lengths and four widths; half and full-length zip, right or left, dual-construction design, oval-shaped footbox, various add-on options at extra cost including waterproof footbox/outer shell, stuff bag, mesh storage bag | Sizes:  16 sizes, depending on requests | Men’s version: Unisex

Slipping inside the bag is immediately cosy, and it’s easily the warmest bag I’ve tested. It’s also the lightest, and to achieve this PHD uses a different construction on the top compared to the underside to “optimise down lofting and shed excess bulk”. Weight is further reduced by the lightweight and wind-resistant nylon lining and shell fabric. I also chose a short zip.

The hood is smaller and more basic than other bags, and whilst it can be cinched around the neck it doesn’t have baffles. A couple of niggles include a sticky zip, and a drawcord for the hood adjuster that sits annoyingly in front of the face. Additionally, the narrow fit means stretching my legs whilst sleeping is not possible.  PHD custom-made bags are for those who demand the best warmth-to-weight ratio, and who are prepared to pay for it.

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How Long Does It Take to Get a Ph.D. Degree?

Earning a Ph.D. from a U.S. grad school typically requires nearly six years, federal statistics show.

How Long It Takes to Get a Ph.D. Degree

Caiaimage | Tom Merton | Getty Images

A Ph.D. is most appropriate for someone who is a "lifelong learner."

Students who have excelled within a specific academic discipline and who have a strong interest in that field may choose to pursue a Ph.D. degree. However, Ph.D. degree-holders urge prospective students to think carefully about whether they truly want or need a doctoral degree, since Ph.D. programs last for multiple years.

According to the Survey of Earned Doctorates, a census of recent research doctorate recipients who earned their degree from U.S. institutions, the median amount of time it took individuals who received their doctorates in 2017 to complete their program was 5.8 years. However, there are many types of programs that typically take longer than six years to complete, such as humanities and arts doctorates, where the median time for individuals to earn their degree was 7.1 years, according to the survey.

Some Ph.D. candidates begin doctoral programs after they have already obtained master's degrees, which means the time spent in grad school is a combination of the time spent pursuing a master's and the years invested in a doctorate. In order to receive a Ph.D. degree, a student must produce and successfully defend an original academic dissertation, which must be approved by a dissertation committtee. Writing and defending a dissertation is so difficult that many Ph.D. students drop out of their Ph.D. programs having done most of the work necessary for degree without completing the dissertation component. These Ph.D. program dropouts often use the phrase " all but dissertation " or the abbreviation "ABD" on their resumes.

According to a comprehensive study of Ph.D. completion rates published by The Council of Graduate Schools in 2008, only 56.6% of people who begin Ph.D. programs earn Ph.D. degrees.

Ian Curtis, a founding partner with H&C Education, an educational and admissions consulting firm, who is pursuing a Ph.D. degree in French at Yale University , says there are several steps involved in the process of obtaining a Ph.D. Students typically need to fulfill course requirements and pass comprehensive exams, Curtis warns. "Once these obligations have been completed, how long it takes you to write your dissertation depends on who you are, how you work, what field you're in and what other responsibilities you have in life," he wrote in an email. Though some Ph.D. students can write a dissertation in a single year, that is rare, and the dissertation writing process may last for several years, Curtis says.

Curtis adds that the level of support a Ph.D. student receives from an academic advisor or faculty mentor can be a key factor in determining the length of time it takes to complete a Ph.D. program. "Before you decide to enroll at a specific program, you’ll want to meet your future advisor," Curtis advises. "Also, reach out to his or her current and former students to get a sense of what he or she is like to work with."

Curtis also notes that if there is a gap between the amount of time it takes to complete a Ph.D. and the amount of time a student's funding lasts, this can slow down the Ph.D. completion process. "Keep in mind that if you run out of funding at some point during your doctorate, you will need to find paid work, and this will leave you even less time to focus on writing your dissertation," he says. "If one of the programs you’re looking at has a record of significantly longer – or shorter – times to competition, this is good information to take into consideration."

He adds that prospective Ph.D. students who already have master's degrees in the field they intend to focus their Ph.D. on should investigate whether the courses they took in their master's program would count toward the requirements of a Ph.D. program. "You’ll want to discuss your particular situation with your program to see whether this will be possible, and how many credits you are likely to receive as the result of your master’s work," he says.

How to Write M.D.-Ph.D. Application Essays

Ilana Kowarski May 15, 2018

Emmanuel C. Nwaodua, who has a Ph.D. degree in geology, says some Ph.D. programs require candidates to publish a paper in a first-rate, peer-reviewed academic journal. "This could extend your stay by a couple of years," he warns.

Pierre Huguet, the CEO and co-founder of H&C Education, says prospective Ph.D. students should be aware that a Ph.D. is designed to prepare a person for a career as a scholar. "Most of the jobs available to Ph.D. students upon graduation are academic in nature and directly related to their fields of study: professor, researcher, etc.," Huguet wrote in an email. "The truth is that more specialization can mean fewer job opportunities. Before starting a Ph.D., students should be sure that they want to pursue a career in academia, or in research. If not, they should make time during the Ph.D. to show recruiters that they’ve traveled beyond their labs and libraries to gain some professional hands-on experience."

Jack Appleman, a business writing instructor, published author and Ph.D. candidate focusing on organizational communication with the University at Albany—SUNY , says Ph.D. programs require a level of commitment and focus that goes beyond what is necessary for a typical corporate job. A program with flexible course requirements that allow a student to customize his or her curriculum based on academic interests and personal obligations is ideal, he says.

Joan Kee, a professor at the University of Michigan with the university's history of art department, says that the length of time required for a Ph.D. varies widely depending on what subject the Ph.D. focuses on. "Ph.D. program length is very discipline and even field-specific; for example, you can and are expected to finish a Ph.D, in economics in under five years, but that would be impossible in art history (or most of the humanities)," she wrote in an email.

Kee adds that humanities Ph.D. programs often require someone to learn a foreign language, and "fields like anthropology and art history require extensive field research." Kee says funding for a humanities Ph.D. program typically only lasts five years, even though it is uncommon for someone to obtain a Ph.D. degree in a humanities field within that time frame. "Because of this, many if not most Ph.D. students must work to make ends meet, thus further prolonging the time of completion," she says.

Jean Marie Carey, who earned her Ph.D. degree in art history and German from the University of Otago in New Zealand, encourages prospective Ph.D. students to check whether their potential Ph.D. program has published a timeline of how long it takes a Ph.D. student to complete their program. She says it is also prudent to speak with Ph.D. graduates of the school and ask about their experience.

Online Doctoral Programs: What to Expect

Ronald Wellman March 23, 2018

Kristin Redington Bennett, the founder of the Illumii educational consulting firm in North Carolina, encourages Ph.D. hopefuls to think carefully about whether they want to become a scholar. Bennett, who has a Ph.D. in curriculum and assessment and who previously worked as an assistant professor at Wake Forest University , says a Ph.D. is most appropriate for someone who is a "lifelong learner." She says someone contemplating a Ph.D. should ask themselves the following questions "Are you a very curious person... and are you persistent?"

Bennett urges prospective Ph.D. students to visit the campuses of their target graduate programs since a Ph.D. program takes so much time that it is important to find a school that feels comfortable. She adds that aspiring Ph.D. students who prefer a collaborative learning environment should be wary of graduate programs that have a cut-throat and competitive atmosphere, since such students may not thrive in that type of setting.

Alumni of Ph.D. programs note that the process of obtaining a Ph.D. is arduous, regardless of the type of Ph.D. program. "A Ph.D. is a long commitment of your time, energy and financial resources, so it'll be easier on you if you are passionate about research," says Grace Lee, who has a Ph.D. in neuroscience and is the founder and CEO of Mastery Insights, an education and career coaching company, and the host of the Career Revisionist podcast.

"A Ph.D. isn't about rehashing years of knowledge that is already out there, but rather it is about your ability to generate new knowledge. Your intellectual masterpiece (which is your dissertation) takes a lot of time, intellectual creativity and innovation to put together, so you have to be truly passionate about that," Lee says.

Curtis says a prospective Ph.D. student's enthusiasm for academic work, teaching and research are the key criteria they should use to decide whether to obtain a Ph.D. degree. "While the time it takes to complete a doctorate is an understandable concern for many, my personal belief is that time is not the most important factor to consider," he says. "Good Ph.D. programs provide their students with generous stipends, health care and sometimes even subsidized housing."

Erin Skelly, a graduate admissions counselor at the IvyWise admissions consulting firm, says when a Ph.D. students struggles to complete his or her Ph.D. degree, it may have more to do with the student's academic interests or personal circumstances than his or her program.

"The time to complete a Ph.D. can depend on a number of variables, but the specific discipline or school would only account for a year or two's difference," she wrote in an email. "When a student takes significantly longer to complete a Ph.D. (degree), it's usually related to the student's coursework and research – they need to take additional coursework to complete their comprehensive exams; they change the focus of their program or dissertation, requiring extra coursework or research; or their research doesn't yield the results they hoped for, and they need to generate a new theory and conduct more research."

Skelly warns that the average completion time of a Ph.D. program may be misleading in some cases, if the average is skewed based on one or two outliers. She suggests that instead of focusing on the duration of a particular Ph.D. program, prospective students should investigate the program's attritition and graduation rates.

"It is worthwhile to look at the program requirements and the school's proposed timeline for completion, and meet current students to get their input on how realistic these expectations for completion are," Skelly says. "That can give you an honest idea of how long it will really take to complete the program."

Searching for a grad school? Access our complete rankings of Best Graduate Schools.

Tags: graduate schools , education , students

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PHD Minim 500 Review

• £272 with M1 Outer (Correct on 01/09/10)
• Sale price £176 (M1 Outer) and £196 (Drishell Outer) (Correct on 01/09/10)
• PHD – 810g (M1 Outer) or 855g (Drishell Outer)
• Weighed – 908g (Drishell Outer)

Minimum Temperature rating:

The Review The PHD Minim 500 is a stripped down lightweight minimalist sleeping bag. PHD Clothing has a reputation for producing uncompromising designs for maximum performance and the Minim 500 is the absolute epitome of this.

It has been stripped of almost all extraneous features such as zips and a neck baffle; but retains high quality down (800 fill power) and lightweight fabrics to create a sub 1kg sleeping bag with a minimum temp rating of -10°C. Its lack of features continues with a simple oval foot piece and standard hood design.

As PHD Clothing say of the lighter minimus it “is a single purpose down sleeping bag, effective warmth at the least possible weight”. This extreme approach to weight saving also results in reduced pack size.

Many people have criticized the PHD Minim 500 sleeping bag for not achieving its -10°C minimum temperate rating. Whilst this is only a guideline figure, it is as a result of the weight/feature saving that the minimum temperature rating is hard to achieve.

For example, the omission of a neck baffle means you have to be extremely fastidious to create an effective heat seal around your head and neck to trap heat in. This can be achieved with careful use of a jacket or tucking the sleeping bag in around your shoulders.

Likewise the hood and foot piece do not fit as snugly as a more complex anatomical mummy hood or trapezoid/ovoid foot piece. Collectively these differences mean you have to work harder to get it to perform to its potential.

One final note on the minimum temperature rating; whilst many factors contribute to this the warmth/insulation of your sleeping mat can be one of the largest differences. To achieve a comfort rating of -10°C you will need a sleeping mat capable of insulating you from the ground at these temperatures (R-value >3.5 as a rough guide).

PHD Clothing offers the choice of outer fabrics across the Minim range; the Minim 500 being reviewed features a Drishell outer, this is a ripstop nylon with a ultra-light coating providing good water resistance.

Whilst keeping a down sleeping bag dry is essential to maintain its performance, having a water resistant outer alleviates some of the anxiety of getting it wet, e.g. drips from a tent or snowhole can be easily brushed off.

It also allows you to turn the sleeping bag inside out if you are damp but your surroundings are not; helping to keep the down dry and preserving its loft.

• Minimal features help to create a lightweight sleeping bag with small pack size.
• Drishell outer fabric helps to keep down dry and lofting.
• Omission of key features and simplicity of others mean you must work harder to get the most from the bag.
• Design and styling is not as cosmetically appealing as many other brands. Whilst only psychological, things which look better often perform better in the eyes of the user.

The verdict The PHD Minim 500 is an excellent lightweight down sleeping bag. Although a small weight penalty, the addition of a Drishell outer is highly recommended. However the user needs to be careful to ensure that they prevent as much heat as possible from escaping due to the lack of neck baffle and simplistic hood design if they are using it in colder conditions.

PHD designs Software M.Degree 300 K Down Sleeping Bag

• Condition: Neu mit Etikett
• Brand: Degree
• Type: Sleeping Bag
• Size: STANDARD

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• SM and ME Course Requirements

[Part of the Policies of the CHD, August 2019]

The following course requirements apply to all SEAS S.M. and M.E. degrees.  Note that the term "course" refers to a standard Harvard semester-length "half course", i.e., a 4-unit FAS course or its equivalent.  2-unit courses such as AP 299qr count as "half of a course" in the context of these requirements.

• Eight letter-graded courses are required for the degree (or twelve for the S.M. in  Data Science. ).  As many of these as possible should be SEAS 200-level courses. M.E. students must take eight additional non-letter-graded research-oriented courses at the 300-level that result in the completion of the required M.E. thesis.
• At least four of the eight courses must be offered through SEAS or taught by a SEAS faculty member in another FAS department.
• At least five of the eight courses must be 200-level SEAS/FAS technical courses, not including reading and research courses (299r), seminar/project courses (298, 297, 294, possibly with letter postfixes), or innovation or communication courses. The remaining three courses should be from SEAS, FAS departments, other Harvard schools, or MIT.   (Note: for MIT courses students should attach the course syllabus and the catalog description when submitting their program plan, indicating MIT G-level status).
• Up to three of the eight courses may be 100-level SEAS/FAS courses. As a guideline, having one 100-level course will generally not lead to any concern; having two 100-level courses requires at least some justification (i.e., that the courses are necessary prerequisites for 200-level courses); having three will generally lead to close examination by the CHD.  Courses at lower than the 100-level, including all General Education courses, may not be counted towards the degree.
• Only one reading and research (299r), seminar/project (298, 297, 294, possibly with letter postfixes), innovation, or communication course can count among the eight courses. An exception is that two such courses are allowed in a CSE S.M. program plan.  S.M. students who are writing a thesis may include up to two 299r courses.
• Harvard Extension School courses may not be included in the program plan.
• Transfer credit is not accepted toward the degree.
• No 300-level courses may be included in the program plan.  ES 399-TIME and AC 399-TIME may not be included in an S.M. or M.E. Program Plan.
• Exceptions to these requirements are considered by petition to the CHD. 

S.M. and M.E. degree grade and area-specific course requirements

In addition to fulfilling the SEAS-wide course requirements, S.M. and M.E. students are required to satisfy the applicable area-specific requirements described in the drop-down lists that follow, as well as the grade expectations in the final drop-down listing.

Consistent with other SEAS Master of Science programs, in order to count towards the Master of Science degree requirements, elective course plans for MS/MBA: Engineering Sciences students must be approved by the SEAS Committee on Higher Degrees  (CHD). 300-level courses and sub-100-level courses may not be included in the Program Plan. No course completed with a grade less than C may be included, and students must achieve a B or better average letter grade in the courses for the degree.

Class of 2023

I. Master of Science Course Requirements - eight letter-graded four-credit courses:

A. ES 280: Designing Technology Ventures

B. ES 234: Technology Venture Immersion 

C. ES 285: Design Theory and Practice 

D. ES 292a: Launch Lab/Capstone I

E. ES 292b: Launch Lab/Capstone II

F. One 200- or 100-level SEAS or SEAS-equivalent technical elective (see II below)

G-H. Two additional technical electives chosen from SEAS or FAS 200/2000-levels or MIT G-levels (see III below)

• If elective F is not a 100-level, one of the remaining electives could be 100/1000-level or a class from another Harvard school.

II. Technical Courses - By default, the following are considered to be 200-level SEAS or SEAS-equivalent technical electives:

• Exceptions include seminar, project, or reading and research courses (e.g., any 294, 297, 298, or 299 course whether or not the number is followed by letters), courses focusing on innovation, entrepreneurship, or written/verbal communication, and “Great Papers”-type courses (e.g. AC 221, AP 227, ES 236a/b, ES 238, ES 239, ES 256).
• Any FAS 200-level technical course taught by a SEAS ladder faculty member ("SEAS-equivalent"). Most 200-level courses in natural sciences and quantitative fields will be technical, with similar exceptions as for SEAS courses (although FAS departments do not follow the same numbering conventions for seminar and project classes).
• Physics 223 (Electronics for Scientists)

III. MIT Courses

• Two G-level MIT technical courses may be taken as electives, pending review by the Committee on Higher Degrees (CHD) for approval for technical graduate-level rigor and adherence to the applicable section of the CHD Policies: "Courses taken by cross-registration should cover subjects not otherwise available in FAS: that is, they should not be taken in place of or in addition to any comparable FAS course without good and sufficient reasons."
• In order to be equivalent to a 4-credit FAS course, an MIT class must count for 9-21 units.

Ph.D students in  Applied Mathematics  may receive the S.M. in  Applied Mathematics  en route to the Ph.D by completing 8 courses from their approved Ph.D. Program Plan that meet the SEAS S.M. requirements described above. 

A.B./S.M. students who are candidates for the S.M. in Applied Mathematics, and Ph.D. students in other subjects who wish to receive the S.M. in Applied Mathematics en route to the Ph.D., must fulfill the following minimum area requirements:

• Four 200-level AM courses, including AM 201 and AM 205 (unless one or both are not offered in a timely fashion).   Note that AM 104 and AM 105 are prerequisites for AM 201, and are effectively prerequisites for many other 200-level Applied Mathematics classes.
• Two additional SEAS or FAS 200-level technical classes, whether from Applied Mathematics or not.
• Demonstration of breadth across the mathematical sciences.  At least one course in Statistics is strongly recommended, at the 100 or 200 level.
• At least two of the non-AM classes must represent a specific application area.

Students seeking an S.M. in  Applied Mathematics  should construct a coherent Applied Mathematics program plan with their assigned SEAS graduate advisor. 

• The AB/SM program is for currently enrolled Harvard College students only.  Follow this link  for more information. 
• PhD students' questions can be directed to the Director of Graduate Education,  John Girash .

Harvard Ph.D. and A.B/S.M. students seeking an S.M. in  Applied Physics  must fulfill the following area requirements:

• Four of the eight required courses must be 200-level Applied Physics courses or 200-level Physics courses taught by SEAS faculty.  ES 240, ES 273, ES 274 and ES 277 count as 200-level Applied Physics courses toward this requirement.
• The remaining four courses must be technical/scientific.

Candidates for a terminal S.M. degree in Applied Physics (including the A.B./S.M.) are advised against including a 299r class in their Program Plan. Ph.D. students seeking the S.M. en route may include one 299r as a “technical/scientific” course in #2 above.

Harvard Ph.D. and AB/SM students seeking an S.M. in  Computer Science  must fulfill the following area requirements:

• Five of the eight required courses must be 200-level courses specifically covering topics in computer science. Generally this means they must be offered as courses in Computer Science. AM 220 is also considered to be a computer science course in this context.  In particular, for Computer Science graduate degrees, Applied Computation courses may be counted as 100-level courses, not 200-level courses. The CHD may approve exceptions.
• At least one of these five 200-level courses must be in Theory. There is no specific list of Theory courses; this rule is enforced by the faculty advisors and the CHD. However, in almost all cases, any class with a course number CS 22x or CS 231 is acceptable as a theory course.
• Just as we expect all students obtaining a S.M. to have experience with the theoretical foundations of computer science, we expect all students to have some knowledge of how to build large software or hardware systems, on the order of thousands of lines of code, or the equivalent complexity in hardware. That experience will be evidenced by coursework. In almost all cases a course numbered CS 26x or CS 24x will satisfy the requirement (exceptions will be noted in the course description on my.harvard). Students may also petition to use CS 161 for this requirement.  For projects in other courses, the student is expected to write a note explaining the project, include a link to any relevant artifacts or outcomes, describe the student's individual contribution, and where appropriate obtain a note from their class instructor.
• CS 290, 290a/b, 290hfa/b or 2091/2092 cannot be used towards the S.M. degree.

Please note that 200-level courses in fields outside SEAS will be examined carefully. Generally, the CHD is looking for two things in such courses. First, it is expected that the course will be comparable in technical level to a SEAS course. Second, the overall program must be coherent. Taking a course in economics because it might apply to computing is not automatically considered coherent. Taking an economics course in game theory along with appropriate relevant 200-level computer science courses in Artificial Intelligence that apply that theory could be part of a coherent program.

• PhD students' questions can be directed to the Director of Graduate Education,  John Girash  or to the Computer Science Director of Graduate Studies at  [email protected] .

Students seeking an S.M. in  Computational Science and Engineering  or in  Data Science  should refer to the programs' specific requirements . Questions can be directed to the Daniel Weinstock , Director for Master's Education.

There are no additional course requirements beyond the SEAS-wide requirements. Harvard Ph.D. and AB/SM students seeking an S.M. in  Engineering Sciences  should construct a cohesive program plan in the appropriate subfield ( Bioengineering, Electrical Engineering , Environmental Science and Engineering, or  Materials Science and Mechanical Engineering)  with their assigned SEAS graduate advisor.

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• PhD Overview and Timeline
• PhD Course Requirements
• PhD Program Plans
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• Qualifying Exam: by end of G2 year
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No course completed with a grade less than C (for the S.M. degree) or B- (for the M.E.) may be included in the Program Plan; the average grade of the courses on the Program Plan must be a “B” or higher.

For regular (terminal) masters students, failure to maintain a cumulative 3.00 or better average grade or receipt of any unsatisfactory grade may require that the student withdraw from the program, thus terminating degree candidacy. 

A regular S.M. candidate whose average grade at the end of the first semester is between 2.50 and 3.00 normally will be warned that they will not complete the requirements for the degree at the end of the second semester unless a cumulative 3.00 or better average grade is achieved.  Should the student fail to satisfy the requirements for the S.M. degree at the end of the second semester, continuation for a third and final semester will be granted provided there is reasonable assurance that the degree requirements can be completed at the end of that semester.  A regular S.M. candidate whose SEAS average grade at the end of the first semester is less than 2.50 but who could achieve a cumulative 3.00 or better average grade at the end of the second semester, working as a full-time student, normally will be warned that continuation for a third and final semester is contingent upon a marked improvement in performance sufficient to provide reasonable assurance that the requirements for the S.M. degree will be completed at the end of the third semester.  A regular S.M. candidate who could not achieve a cumulative 3.00 or better average grade at the end of the second semester normally will be required to withdraw at the end of the first semester, thus terminating degree candidacy.

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EXPLORING REASONS THAT U.S. MD-PHD STUDENTS ENTER AND LEAVE THEIR DUAL-DEGREE PROGRAMS

Devasmita chakraverty.

Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad, Ahmedabad, India

Donna B. Jeffe

Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO, U.S.A.

Katherine P. Dabney

Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA, U.S.A.

Robert H. Tai

University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA, U.S.A.

Aim/Purpose

In response to widespread efforts to increase the size and diversity of the biomedical-research workforce in the U.S., a large-scale qualitative study was conducted to examine current and former students’ training experiences in MD (Doctor of Medicine), PhD (Doctor of Philosophy), and MD-PhD dual-degree programs. In this paper, we aimed to describe the experiences of a subset of study participants who had dropped out their MD-PhD dual-degree training program, the reasons they entered the MD-PhD program, as well as their reasons for discontinuing their training for the MD-PhD.

The U.S. has the longest history of MD-PhD dual-degree training programs and produces the largest number of MD-PhD graduates in the world. In the U.S., dual-degree MD-PhD programs are offered at many medical schools and historically have included three phases—preclinical, PhD-research, and clinical training, all during medical-school training. On average, it takes eight years of training to complete requirements for the MD-PhD dual-degree. MD-PhD students have unique training experiences, different from MD-only or PhD-only students. Not all MD-PhD students complete their training, at a cost to funding agencies, schools, and students themselves.

Methodology

We purposefully sampled from 97 U.S. schools with doctoral programs, posting advertisements for recruitment of participants who were engaged in or had completed PhD, MD, and MD-PhD training. Between 2011-2013, semi-structured, one-on-one phone interviews were conducted with 217 participants. Using a phenomenological approach and inductive, thematic analysis, we examined students’ reasons for entering the MD-PhD dual-degree program, when they decided to leave, and their reasons for leaving MD-PhD training.

Contribution

Study findings offer new insights into MD-PhD students’ reasons for leaving the program, beyond what is known about program attrition based on retrospective analysis of existing national data, as little is known about students’ actual reasons for attrition. By more deeply exploring students’ reasons for attrition, programs can find ways to improve MD-PhD students’ training experiences and boost their retention in these dual-degree programs to completion, which will, in turn, foster expansion of the biomedical-research-workforce capacity.

Seven participants in the larger study reported during their interview that they left their MD-PhD programs before finishing, and these were the only participants who reported leaving their doctoral training. At the time of interview, two participants had completed the MD and were academic-medicine faculty, four were completing medical school, and one dropped out of medicine to complete a PhD in Education. Participants reported enrolling in MD-PhD programs to work in both clinical practice and research. Very positive college research experiences, mentorship, and personal reasons also played important roles in participants’ decisions to pursue the dual MD-PhD degree. However, once in the program, positive mentorship and other opportunities that they experienced during or after college, which initially drew candidates to the program was found lacking. Four themes emerged as reasons for leaving the MD-PhD program: 1) declining interest in research, 2) isolation and lack of social integration during the different training phases, 3) suboptimal PhD-advising experiences, and 4) unforeseen obstacles to completing PhD research requirements, such as loss of funding.

Recommendations for Practitioners

Though limited by a small sample size, findings highlight the need for better integrated institutional and programmatic supports for MD-PhD students, especially during PhD training.

Recommendations for Researchers

Researchers should continue to explore if other programmatic aspects of MD-PhD training (other than challenges experienced during PhD training, as discussed in this paper) are particularly problematic and pose challenges to the successful completion of the program.

Impact on Society

The MD-PhD workforce comprises a small, but highly -trained cadre of physician-scientists with the expertise to conduct clinical and/or basic science research aimed at improving patient care and developing new diagnostic tools and therapies. Although MD-PhD graduates comprise a small proportion of all MD graduates in the U.S. and globally, about half of all MD-trained physician-scientists in the U.S. federally funded biomedical-research workforce are MD-PhD-trained physicians. Training is extensive and rigorous. Improving experiences during the PhD-training phase could help reduce MD-PhD program attrition, as attrition results in substantial financial cost to federal and private funding agencies and to medical schools that fund MD-PhD programs in the U.S. and other countries.

Future Research

Future research could examine, in greater depth, how communications among students, faculty and administrators in various settings, such as classrooms, research labs, and clinics, might help MD-PhD students become more fully integrated into each new program phase and continue in the program to completion. Future research could also examine experiences of MD-PhD students from groups underrepresented in medicine and the biomedical-research workforce (e.g., first-generation college graduates, women, and racial/ethnic minorities), which might serve to inform interventions to increase the numbers of applicants to MD-PhD programs and help reverse the steady decline in the physician-scientist workforce over the past several decades.

Introduction

Traditional doctoral training for the PhD involves time for trainees to learn to combine their knowledge of course content and research skills to produce original research, culminating with a doctoral dissertation ( Lovitts, 2005 ). Typically, the average time of PhD-degree completion varies from 4-6 years ( Bourke et al., 2004 ). The MD-PhD (Doctor of Medicine and Doctor of Philosophy) physician-scientist workforce comprises a relatively small cadre of well-trained physician-scientists with the research skills to address clinical and/or basic science research questions aimed at improving patient care ( Goldstein & Kohrt, 2012 ; Varki & Rosenberg, 2002 ). In the U.S., MD-PhD training during medical school is extensive and lengthy, typically lasting for eight or more years ( Brass et al., 2010 ; Jeffe et al., 2014a ), and MD-PhD program attrition is a cause of concern. To our knowledge, only one study has been conducted to examine factors associated with MD-PhD program attrition ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ), and no studies have purposely examined MD-PhD students’ own reasons for leaving their MD-PhD program.

To fill a gap in the literature, we examined attrition from MD-PhD training programs in the U.S., where such training programs were first developed in the 1950s to increase the number of physician-scientists in the biomedical-research workforce (Harding et al., 2017) and where integrated dual-degree MD-PhD programs are the most prevalent. For the award period from July 1, 2019 through June 30, 2020, 50 of 154 U.S. Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME)-accredited medical schools had dual-degree MD-PhD programs that were funded by the U.S. National Institutes of Health National Institute of General Medical Sciences (NIH NIGMS) Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) ( National Institute of General Medical Sciences, 2020 ). Many, if not all, MSTP-funded MD-PhD programs as well as non-MSTP-funded MD-PhD programs in U.S. medical schools receive training support from non-federal governmental and private funding organizations, other NIH institutes, and institutional funds to support MD-PhD training ( AAMC, 2009 ; Jeffe et al., 2014a ; Jeffe & Andriole, 2011 ). MD-PhD programs in other countries are small in number relative to the number of MD-PhD programs in the U.S. ( Jones et al., 2016 ; Kuehnle et al., 2009 ; Twa et al., on behalf of the Canadian MD/PhD Program Investigation Group, 2017 ), and many of the nationally supported MD-PhD programs in other countries, such as Switzerland ( Kuehnle et al, 2009 ) and Germany ( Bossé et al., 2011 ), allow for PhD training to begin after receipt of the MD. A 2016-2017 survey of the European MD/PhD Association programs in multiple countries examined MD-PhD program characteristics in association with MD-PhD students’ and graduates’ opinions about the program, their career choices and outcomes ( dos Santos Rocha et al., 2020 ); but we found no studies published that examined MD-PhD students’ self-reported reasons for leaving the MD-PhD program prior to completion.

This exploratory study therefore sought to answer the following research questions: “For MD-PhD students who discontinued their training, what motivated them to pursue MD-PhD training? Additionally, at what point during training and for what reasons did they discontinue their training?”

Literature Review

Md-phd programs typically involve three phases:.

two years of pre-clinical training in medical school, at least four years of PhD research training in graduate school, and two more years of clinical training after returning to medical school ( Brass et al., 2010 ; Jeffe et al., 2014a ). Acceptance to MD-PhD dual-degree programs is very competitive, and MD-PhD graduates have a greater planned career involvement in research at the time of medical-school graduation compared with all other MD graduates ( Andriole et al., 2008 ), especially in disease-oriented and clinical research ( Ahn et al., 2007 ; Andriole et al., 2008 ).

Not all students who matriculate into MD-PhD programs complete the program ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ; National Institutes of Health National Institute of General Medical Sciences [NIH-NIGMS], 1998 ). In an earlier survey study, more than one-fourth of enrolled MD-PhD students seriously considered leaving the program ( Ahn et al., 2007 ). In a survey of 24 MD-PhD programs ( Brass et al., 2010 ), attrition rates were reported to range from 3-34%. In a national cohort study of MD-PhD program enrollees at time of matriculation, the attrition rate was observed to be 27% ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ). By comparison, the attrition rate among MD-only students in the U.S. is about 3% ( Association of American Medical Colleges [AAMC], 2012 ; Garrison et al., 2007 ). PhD enrollment and completion rates vary across universities, fields, countries, and demographic factors such as sex ( Dabney et al., Tai, 2016 ); national-level data on PhD-program attrition is not well-documented. An Australian study collected data from approximately 1,200 students enrolled at one university to find a completion rate of 70% ( Bourke et al., 2004 ). In another study, attrition data were collected in 2013-2014 in a survey of more than 1,500 psychology programs in the U.S. and found doctoral attrition rates between 5-13% ( Michalski et al., 2016 ). Dropout rates during PhD training have been reported to be between 40% and 60% ( Geiger, 1997 ; Tinto, 1987 ). The odds of PhD student dropout in STEM is most in the first year and greater for women ( Lott et al., 2009 ). One study about underrepresented racial/ethnic minority (URM, including Black/African American, Hispanic/Latino, and American Indian/Native American) students in STEM that collated PhD completion rates for ten years found Black and Hispanic students to have PhD completion rates of 50% and 58%, respectively ( Okahana et al., 2016 ).

While navigating the preclinical, research, and clinical phases of training, MD-PhD students face unique challenges different from MD-only or PhD-only students ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ). More MD-PhD than MD students anticipate or experience challenges to balancing training and family life ( Kwan et al., 2017 ). Students also find that the tripartite model of MD-PhD dual-degree programs in the U.S. and Canada creates challenges, having to navigate two transitions between training phases ( Bossé et al., 2011 ; Chakraverty et al., 2018 ), which most students in MD-only or PhD-only programs do not experience. Among the challenges experienced by MD-PhD students having to transition between the phases are time away from the clinical environment, which could impact students’ preparedness for clinical clerkships ( Goldberg & Insel, 2013 ) as well as a lack of desired mentoring (especially mentoring by MD-PhD faculty), a perceived lack of curricular integration and of awareness of phase-specific cultural differences, and difficulties assimilating with other trainees during the research- and clinical-training phases, who are not from their original cohort of peers ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ).

Large national cohort studies have examined educational experiences of MD-PhD students as well as variables associated with MD-PhD enrollment ( Jeffe et al., 2014b ), attrition ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ), and graduation ( Andriole et al., 2008 ). Individuals who reported participating in high school and college laboratory research apprenticeships, and who highly valued research and finding disease cures as the most important reason to study medicine were more likely to enroll in MD-PhD programs, demonstrating alignment of students’ attitudes and interests with MD-PhD program goals ( Jeffe et al., 2014b ; Tai et al., 2017 ). Students who planned substantial career involvement in research at graduation were more likely to be MD-PhD program graduates than all other-MD program graduates; controlling for other variables in the regression model, women and URM students were less likely to graduate from MD-PhD (vs. other-MD) programs ( Andriole et al., 2008 ). In another study of 2,582 MD-PhD program enrollees, 1,885 (73%) had completed the MD-PhD program, 597 (23%) dropped out of the program but completed the MD, and 100 (4%) left medical school entirely ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ). Although students who enrolled in MD-PhD programs at medical-school matriculation and planned substantial career involvement in research at that time were less likely to leave the MD-PhD program, students who had lower Medical College Admission Test scores, attended medical schools without NIH NIGMS MSTP-funded MD-PhD programs, and were older at matriculation were more likely to leave their MD-PhD program. Notably, women and URM students were neither more nor less likely to leave the MD-PhD program and graduate with only an MD degree ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ). Students’ MD-PhD program satisfaction was reported to be higher at the beginning of the program and lower during the research phase, due to the unpredictability of time to complete the PhD ( Ahn et al., 2007 ).

Although research has examined challenges faced by potential MD-PhD program applicants ( Kersbergen et al., 2020 ) and by MD-PhD students during their training as described above, to our knowledge, no study has examined the reasons why MD-PhD students leave the program before completing their training using a qualitative research approach. Qualitative research can help explain the decision-making process of individuals ( Marshall & Rossman, 2006 ), adding to our understanding of reasons for leaving the program from participants’ perspectives of their personal experiences. We examined attrition from MD-PhD dual-degree programs using a lens of integration and interaction ( Kong et al., 2013 ) to better understand why some U.S. MD-PhD students ultimately discontinued their training.

The data for this paper were collected for a larger qualitative study (Transitions in the Education of Minorities Underrepresented in Research) conducted in the U.S. between 2010 and 2014. This larger study examined training experiences of doctoral students and postdoctoral trainees planning to pursue careers in the biomedical-research workforce to identify factors that served to facilitate or impede progress along this career path ( Andriole et al., 2015 ; Chakraverty, 2013 ; Chakraverty et al., 2018 ; Jeffe et al., 2014a ; Jeffe et al., 2014b ; Tai et al., 2017 ). In all, we conducted 217 interviews with PhD, MD, and MD-PhD students, postdocs, physician-scientists, and faculty in U.S. higher education biomedical-science PhD programs and in MD-PhD dual-degree programs in U.S. medical schools.

Methodological considerations for conducting a qualitative study were governed by the aims of the larger study to more deeply understand participants’ reasons for considering doctoral-level training in the biomedical sciences in pursuit of a research career and for attrition from MD-PhD training specifically, if applicable, which is the focus of the current study. Using a phenomenological approach, we examined how participants made their decisions to enter or leave their training programs ( Marshall & Rossman, 2006 ). Semi-structured, in-depth interviews allowed us to gather detailed narratives to learn more about all participants’ decision-making processes to enter and either complete or leave their doctoral training ( DiCicco-Bloom & Crabtree, 2006 ). Although this paper focuses on attrition from the MD-PhD program, we also analyzed data for these participants’ reasons for enrolling in the MD-PhD program, to gain a more holistic understanding of their experiences and decision-making processes.

Data Collection and Analysis

Study sample and eligibility.

Following Institutional Review Board approval at the University of Virginia and Washington University in St. Louis, we purposefully sampled ( Marshall & Rossman, 2006 ; Miles & Huberman, 1994 ) U.S. public and private higher education institutions offering biomedical-science PhD degrees and medical schools with dual-degree MD-PhD programs. We sought to interview individuals training for or currently engaged in biomedical research; we also wanted to interview MD-PhD program trainees who dropped out of their program before graduation. We included higher education institutions with the Carnegie classification ( The Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education, n.d. ), indicating high or very high research activity. Deans and department chairs disseminated information about the study with our contact information, using emails, announcements, posters, and flyers. We also recruited participants through snowball sampling (Bogdan & Biklen, 2007; Sadler et al., 2010 ), asking current participants if they would be willing to share our contact information with their colleagues or other students in their program, as well as with individuals who had left their program, and to encourage them to participate in this study. We scheduled phone interviews with individuals who contacted us expressing an interest to participate.

Of 217 participants interviewed in the larger study, 29 students were then currently enrolled in an MD-only program, 20 in a PhD-only program, and 68 in an MD-PhD program; in addition, 25 participants were postdoctoral trainees at the time of the study. Participants no longer in school included 56 faculty, 14 non-scientists, 4 scientists outside academia, and one participant who dropped out of the MD-PhD program before completing either degree. For the current study about MD-PhD program attrition, anyone who had once enrolled in an MD-PhD program but did not complete it was eligible to participate. Overall, seven participants had been enrolled in dual-degree MD-PhD programs but subsequently discontinued MD-PhD training, six of whom continued their training for the MD. The current analysis examines the training experiences of those seven participants and reasons for discontinuing MD-PhD training, which was a specific aim of the larger study.

Semi-structured interviews

A semi-structured interview format allowed us some flexibility in asking question better tailored to an individual’s life experiences ( Cohen & Crabtree, 2006 ), although we asked everyone a basic set of questions, ( Table 1 ). Each participant completed one, 45-60 minute semi-structured telephone interview following their informed consent. The interview questions were developed based on the overall study aims, one of which focused on reasons for MD-PhD attrition. The interview protocol and questions were developed by the principal investigators and co-investigators based on their knowledge of gaps in the literature and understanding of the field; interview questions were reviewed by content experts and pilot tested before the initiation of data collection.

Interview Questions Asked of Participants

Specially trained interviewers, including faculty and PhD students on the research team, conducted interviews for this study. Demographic data such as age, sex, race/ethnicity, and current program were collected at the beginning of each interview. Interviews were audio-recorded with permission, transcribed verbatim through a professional company, and assigned an alpha-numeric code prior to analysis. For this aim of the study focusing on MD-PhD students’ reasons for leaving the MD-PhD program, in-depth interviews were conducted to gain insight into participants’ backgrounds, experiences, reasons for enrolling in MD-PhD programs, and when and why they discontinued their MD-PhD training through their own narratives ( Kvale & Brinkmann, 2009 ). We sought to identify aspects of the training that might have been particularly problematic for these participants. Probing questions were asked based on participants’ responses. All the authors have directly conducted or aided in medical education research for varying lengths of time. At the end of each interview, participants were asked to broadly share information about the study in their professional and personal networks, so that people from a wider network would become aware of this study using snowball sampling (Bogdan & Biklen, 2007; Sadler et al., 2010 ).

Analytic strategy

Each interview transcript was open-coded by two authors, both for narratives about their reasons for enrolling in the MD-PhD program and for leaving the program. The coders created a single codebook after discussing and resolving disagreements about codes, compiling all the codes into a final list that was used to reanalyze all the interviews. Since attrition MD-PhD program attrition is a relatively understudied topic, codes were based on participant transcripts rather than existing literature. Using an inductive, thematic approach as the primary analysis strategy ( Miles & Huberman, 1994 ; Pope et al., 2000 ) and the constant comparative method of coding ( Glaser & Strauss, 1967 ), the codes were systematically organized into themes ( Thomas, 2006 ). Themes that emerged from the analysis are presented if experiences fitting in a theme were discussed by multiple participants. Although some reasons described during the interview were unique for a participant, we elaborate only on those recurrent themes and experiences that were common across multiple participants. Both coders were mindful of the fact that their worldviews and positionalities could differ from those of the participants, interviewers, and from each other, which could influence how the interviews were conducted and data were analyzed ( Antin et al., 2015 ). Both coders were a part of the interview team and are educational researchers with a background in higher education and medical education research; they used a reflective journal, recording memos to document their coding decisions during analysis and acknowledge any disconfirming evidence. The coders also consulted with each other to ensure agreement on coding. They resolved coding disagreements through a discussion and consensus. The coding and analysis process lasted roughly seven months. We present representative quotes that exemplified the emergent themes, adding content in brackets to clarify a participant’s narrative. We used pseudonyms for those participants whose results are described in this manuscript.

Of the seven participants who had left the MD-PhD program before completion, two had completed their MD training and held academic-medicine faculty positions at the time of their interview; four were still in medical school completing the MD degree, and one was completing a PhD in Education ( Table 2 ). Since the sample size was small, our findings are exploratory; we did not expect to reach data saturation, a stage when no new themes emerge as a result of further data collection ( Faulkner & Trotter, 2017 ; Glaser & Strauss, 1967 ). Although there were similarities in the reasons that participants gave for entering MD-PhD training, each participant described slightly different circumstances and stages during which they left MD-PhD training.

Participant Demographics, Timing of MD-PhD-program Attrition, and Status at Time of Interview

Why participants entered MD-PhD training?

We asked participants what inspired them to pursue MD-PhD training in the first place. All seven participants provided reasons that included both a desire to help people on a day-to-day basis through clinical practice and to more deeply engage in research. Having the MD-PhD dual degree was perceived as a way to broaden research opportunities to participate in clinical and other types of research as well as get access to patient populations. For all participants, the desire to pursue a research career grew from undergraduate research opportunities that they had experienced; such opportunities led to publishing and presenting at conferences, networking with established researchers, and getting to know “what their careers were like” (Debbie). Ben had “a pretty thorough research experience” in college where he “worked every summer in the research lab” and had already published research by the time he finished college. Aaron described an undergraduate mentor who was “a very good chemist and a wonderful teacher” who taught him “how research is done and the rewards of doing research.” A fulfilling college research experience also provided participants with the skills to handle research responsibilities, independently decide what experiments to conduct, and develop ownership of the work—factors that made participants consider studying for an MD-PhD.

In college, it became much more concrete, this idea that I wanted to do research and medicine, and try and incorporate the two. The experience gave me this little niche to be working in and got me really excited about what scientists do. (Eva)

During college, participants reported having opportunities to give presentations at national conferences and to gain insight into clinical experiences by shadowing physicians, and volunteering to help children with special needs. Such experiences shaped one’s desire to pursue MD-PhD as opposed to MD-only or PhD-only. Eva, who wanted to combine medical training with research training shared, “as much as I like the research and thinking about science, I wasn’t cut out to just be in the lab all the time by myself.”

Participants were also influenced by undergraduate mentors who provided hands-on research experience by “letting me have my own little section of the project.… He said, ‘Here's a part of the project. I want you to figure this thing out.’ I think that’s what really sparked my enthusiasm for basic science” (Francesca). Overall, Eva realized that receiving both the MD and PhD would help “produce new knowledge and provide independence” and the “thrill of discovery.” College mentors also helped select and apply to MD-PhD programs and provided information about how one could combine patient care and research if they had the dual MD-PhD. Gerald noted, “The premed adviser at the house [dormitory] was an MD-PhD. He did have a relatively big influence on my decision to pursue MD-PhD.” A dual-degree meant that “I don’t have to give up one side of something that I find exciting and want to explore.”

Participants were motivated by a combination of positive research experiences and personal reasons to pursue the MD-PhD. For example, Debbie shared,

After college I worked as a research technician in a lab studying HIV, and I worked with a lot of physicians who also did research. I sort of liked the idea of the variety in their careers, so I was looking into programs that would allow me to see patients plus do research, and that was how I decided to apply to [the] MD-PhD program.

Personal or family reasons also was a motivation for pursuing MD-PhD. Gerald reasoned, “my grandma was often sick in the nursing home. Going back and forth from the hospital to the nursing home to home. I wanted to help people like her.”

In summary, participants wanted to pursue MD-PhD to be able to work in two worlds—clinical practice and research. Clearly, very positive college research experiences, mentorship, and personal reasons also played big roles in participants’ decisions to pursue the dual MD-PhD degree. And for some, the icing on the cake was the lure of opportunities to participate in a variety of professional activities that they could enjoy as an MD-PhD. So what happened to make these individuals change their minds?

Why participants left the MD-PhD training?

Aaron and Eva left their MD-PhD program at the end of second year without starting the PhD training phase at all; the other five participants completed some of their PhD training before discontinuing the MD-PhD program ( Table 2 ). Once in the program, the influence of positive role models and opportunities that drew candidates to the program was weakened by a variety of factors. Four recurrent themes emerged from the data with regard to participants’ reasons for leaving the MD-PhD program without completing the requirements for both degrees ( Table 3 ), which we describe below.

“Why participants left MD-PhD training?”: Frequency for Each Theme

Declining interest in research

Three participants (Aaron, Debbie, and Eva) shared that although they joined an MD-PhD program to pursue research as well as clinical care, their interest in research and earning a PhD declined shortly after starting the program, which contributed to their decisions to leave the program. At the time of the interview, Aaron was a faculty of clinical research at a medical school and in his sixties (describing experiences from his twenties), and Eva was a second-year medical student in her twenties. Yet, both shared similar experiences of a decline in interest in research following the first few research rotations during their MD-PhD training. Both left their MD-PhD program at the end of their second year of medical school, without formally starting PhD training at all, although both had pursued summer research opportunities during medical school.

For both, it was a combination of being exposed to interesting clinical problems during MD pre-clinical phase, summer rotations shortly after that did not yield research, and a declining interest in research, where “All of a sudden, the PhD just didn’t seem like the thing that I wanted to do anymore, even though when I applied a year and a half ago, I was super excited about it” (Eva). In both cases, lab rotations did not fit research interests, creating doubts about how attractive the PhD would be. Both had an enriching research experience in college that contributed to their decision of doing an MD-PhD. However, once the program started, the excitement:

sort of fizzled. I couldn’t really find something that would keep me interested in that same way. … I was less than thrilled about what I was doing. That was why I first started questioning what I am looking to get out of this. (Eva)

Aaron did not want to put his clinical training on hold after two years and “take off three or four years to go into a lab when I didn’t have a hot project that I was totally enthused about, having had my project from the prior summer sizzle out.” He felt frustrated “not having something [in research] that I had a lot of enthusiasm for. I’d heard about all these fascinating clinical issues and conditions and examined just a couple of patients and thought that was very exciting.” That led him to gravitate towards only the MD degree. The structure of MD-PhD program felt illogical, “giving you the preparation for going into clinics and then saying, ‘Okay, we’ll put that on hold for four years and let’s go do research,’” Aaron shared. At the end of two years, when their MD-PhD cohort split with the rest of the MD classmates, he decided to only continue his clinical training.

This was also largely as a result of positive pre-clinical experiences where both Aaron and Eva learnt a lot from the preceptorship in the first year, an elective mentored experience where one was paired up with a physician to shadow and be involved in doing interviews and physical exams with patients. Debbie, who left after the third year of the MD-PhD program (after two years of medical school and one year of PhD) did that due to the uncertainty of producing research results and lengthy training for the PhD. At the start of her MD-PhD program, she “loved the medical school curriculum and working with other medical students.” However, when she started her PhD training at the beginning of third year, she did not like research as much and felt underprepared for research compared to her MD-PhD peers. She was “leaning more towards medicine” and “didn’t quite fit the MD-PhD profile.” She shared being “not excited everyday by going to the lab, the way I am excited to go to the hospital every day. I just felt like I was missing something. I was unhappy and frustrated doing research.” She realized that she enjoyed clinical training more than research, did not feel as prepared or enthused about getting a PhD by the third year, and felt out of place in the research lab. Like Eva, Debbie would prefer conducting research during residency rather than continuing training for the PhD and ultimately being responsible for running a research lab as a principal investigator.

Isolation and lack of social integration during the different training phases

Social integration broadly describes the ways in which MD-PhD students were able to assimilate into the different cultures during the various training phases. Students described the challenges they experienced and ability to interact with other MD-PhD students as well as with PhD-only and MD-only students during the respective research- and clinical-training phases. Five participants (Ben, Carrie, Eva, Francesca, and Gerald) described challenges in integrating socially in different phases of the MD-PhD program that eventually contributed to their decision of leaving the MD-PhD program. Lack of both family and peer interaction contributed to feelings of isolation.

Family interaction:

There were feelings of isolation due to living far away from family and a cohesive community with which they were familiar. Eva shared that eventually, the novelty of MD-PhD went away and stress related to how long the training was going to take set in. None of the seven participants had an immediate family member in medicine, and four of them were first-generation college students. Having a physician parent might have provided participants with more opportunities and resources to understand and feel comfortable with the demands MD-PhD training. There was a “disconnect in how much my family understands about what I’m doing here at school,” shared Eva. Families sometimes did not understand the academic pressures or the purpose of undergoing such a long training. Although participants reported they did not get much family support while pursuing MD-PhD, Ben shared that he received family support when he decided to leave the program.

Peer interaction:

Isolation due to poor peer interactions started as early as by the second year of MD-PhD training. Socialization opportunities during PhD were inadequate and not as fulfilling, making “the cultural transition from medicine to science a very hard one” (Francesca). It was difficult to mingle with PhD-only students who had already gone through a year of classes and lab rotations with other PhD students and had formed their groups. Participants felt like outsiders in the PhD program. Francesca felt frustrated interacting “with the same five people all day, every day. I was feeling isolated from other people.”

I loved interacting with the patients. I loved the immediacy of medicine. It was a slow realization for me over the last year and a half that I was in the lab that I was much more passionate about the day-to-day work of medicine than I was about the day-to-day work of science. I think part of it as the sort of solitary nature of it [lab research]. I feel like I’m more of a people person than I could be while I was in the lab. (Francesca)

Lack of a social circle was also a challenge, Gerald shared not having “close friends who were doing it [completing MD-PhD training]. Maybe that would have given me more insight into the day-to-day life and might have swayed me a different way.” When a large cohort of MD-PhD students split up to go to different departments during their PhD training, daily interactions with fellow MD-PhD students decreased for him.

Ben felt like being in a difficult environment and a “strange, no-man’s land” to work where neither the MD nor the PhD students considered MD-PhD students one of their own.

[It was like a] cold war between the MD and the PhD faculty at a medical school. The PhDs feel that their degree is of slightly higher rank than an MD and should be treated thus. In a medical school, the MDs insist that [they rank higher]. Both sides feel that they should be in charge, and the other ones are the secondary people. (Ben)

Carrie felt that it would be less stressful if she left PhD training since she had not met a single MD-PhD graduate who was happy. MD students “looked down” on MD-PhD students, considering them to be poor clinicians “because you split your time doing research” and “the PhD did not help in the clinic,” she shared, adding that fellow PhD students did not consider MD-PhDs as serious researchers, saying that MD-PhD students’ “research training was watered down.” Both Carrie and Francesca felt that students in each phase were territorial. Carrie described an “us-against-them mentality”—where MD students considered the PhD-phase of the MD-PhD program as “getting a vacation,” and PhD students were of the opinion that “this isn’t med school where people will hold your hand and spoon-feed you what you need to know.” Francesca felt the cultural transition to the PhD program and the several-year-long gap in medical training were formidable challenges.

In addition to unsatisfactory peer-interactions, Eva eventually realized she enjoyed the daily interactions she experienced working in a hospital more than while conducting research, “which is very much sort of intellectual and introverted. What changed most were the internal factors about what I want out of my career and my life.”

Suboptimal PhD-advising experiences

Three participants (Ben, Carrie, and Gerald) described several challenges related to inadequate mentoring and PhD-advising that contributed to their decision to leave the program. Lack of adequate mentoring during a very regimented MD-PhD training was a widely discussed challenge. Those who left the program described the mentoring they received as minimal, inadequate, sparse, and hands-off. Advisers did not always help in coping with the stress of a long training process, especially during PhD when students had already spent a few years in the program. This was especially discouraging for first-generation students who had received no guidance at home. “Nobody asked if there were problems down there [in the PhD lab] until I did my resignation letter, and then they’re like, ‘Oh, well, what can we do to get you to stay?’ At this point, nothing,” shared Carrie.

Students lacked the bigger picture of what an MD-PhD would be doing ten years down the line, the MD-PhD’s perspective on career development and how to handle training challenges, which could only be provided by MD-PhD advisers (compared to advisers with an MD-only or PhD-only degree). Female MD-PhD students sought female MD-PhD advisers to understand how to achieve work-life balance, who were even rarer to find. Overall, MD-PhD advisers were hard to find.

In addition to bad experiences with PhD advisers and lack of MD-PhD advisers overall, a positive experience with an MD preceptor actually steered students away from a PhD towards an MD-only program. Overall, conflicts arose when adviser and student’s professional goals and values did not match. This happened when a PhD adviser only trained students to become the next generation of principal investigators in a basic science research lab, while that was not the goal for an MD-PhD student. This mismatch made the relationship uncomfortable, especially when advisers “expressed negative opinions of medical students” and treated them more like an employee, shared Gerald.

Ben shared that many PhD advisers were “hostile to the fact that I was an MD-PhD student” and “wore a chip on their shoulder all the time over their position vis-a-vis the doctors. That was just generally a difficult environment to function in.” PhD advisers especially made a difference in a good or bad way because the PhD training process itself was long, with years of research not always yielding publishable results. Given this uncertainty, having young, inexperienced, and pre-tenure PhD advisers further posed challenges, created negative experiences, and discouraged MD-PhD students from completing a PhD. Ben eventually lost his PhD support and was “kicked out against my will for having made inadequate progress” in research. He shared that PhD advisers had “full authority to judge on any criteria they want whether someone has made adequate progress,” and there was no legal defense against that, even if certain committee members did not agree with the decision to expel a student. Often, when a PhD collaboration between faculty and MD-PhD student did not work out, it was difficult to identify another PhD adviser because of smaller MD-PhD programs (compared to PhD-only programs) with fewer available faculty.

When there was lack of MD-PhD advisers, having a better adviser in one phase could disproportionately shift the balance and make students want to complete that part of the training. Gerald had issues working with his PhD adviser, but his MD mentor was very supportive and “willing to meet with me any time to discuss how things are going in medical school, getting back into study habits for medical school after being out for four years.”

Unforeseen obstacles to completing PhD research requirements

Four participants (Ben, Carrie, Francesca, and Gerald) described various unforeseen circumstances that they experienced while completing research requirements during the PhD-phase, which contributed to their decision to leave MD-PhD training. Gerald was in his sixth year (two years of MD and four years of PhD) when he left MD-PhD training. At the beginning of PhD training, none of the lab rotations culminated into a fruitful experience to facilitate completing PhD. Sometimes, “animal models did not work,” forcing one to abandon experiments after many years of effort.

It [the animal model] was still expressing the gene. It was still making the protein, but the phenotypes that…. were no longer there. After several generations of outbreeding were still not there. I was the only person using this model. (Gerald)

Experimental failures created tension between Gerald and committee members because “there was kind of a disconnect between what the rest of my committee expected and what my mentor was able to support.” Even when the program advised to start a new project, it was not possible; Gerald’s PhD adviser “didn’t really have the time or the energy to get that [a new project] off the ground.” Lack of time became a challenge.

I had two weeks to write a completely detailed proposal on this new project. Based on my experience just working with the phenotype and the amount of time and energy that went into that, then looking at [how to] be able to get this new project finished, it would’ve required even more time and energy. It no longer seemed feasible to me. (Gerald)

The possibility of joining a different lab was also eliminated due to time constraints. Francesca, who was in her eighth year of training (two years of MD and six years of PhD) when she left the program, continued to lose more time when the PhD adviser moved to a different university and there were facility-based technical problems.

They constructed [for] us a containment facility instead of a clean room for some of the work, so the airflow was backwards, and all the cultures got contaminated for months. I think I probably lost about nine months with the move and getting all these things straightened out again. (Francesca)

As a result, she felt that the PhD training was tedious and “the things I love about research are sort of hard to vet.” She added, “after six years of doing something, if you’re still spending a lot of time optimizing it, you’re not necessarily learning anything from that. It’s just sort of rote, repetitive work.” Ultimately, the length of time needed to complete MD-PhD training created other personal challenges that contributed to participants’ decisions to discontinue the MD-PhD program. For Ben and Carrie, the lengthy training time, especially during PhD, deterred them from raising a family. Carrie added, “The system penalizes individuals who need to take a break in between their training.”

This study reported results of an analysis of interview data that were collected for a larger qualitative study of training experiences and career decisions made by individuals pursuing biomedical-research careers. Although findings reported here reflect perspectives of only seven individuals who left the dual MD-PhD program before completion, their narratives provide a deeper understanding of reasons for discontinuing training—reasons that have not been captured in surveys ( Ahn et al., 2007 ) or even in large, retrospective, national-cohort studies ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ).

Six of the seven former MD-PhD students finished medical school and completed requirements for the MD degree. Although five left the MD-PhD program within 2-3 years of matriculation, two left after six or more years of training due to extenuating circumstances related to their PhD advisers. Participants’ narratives included details of their reasons for leaving the MD-PhD program. Overall, four recurrent themes emerged from the data, including: 1) declining interest in research, 2) isolation and lack of social integration during the different training phases, 3) suboptimal PhD-advising experiences, and 4) unforeseen obstacles to completing PhD research requirements. Interestingly, analysis of data from 48 then-current MD-PhD students who participated in the larger study also reflected two of the same challenges, specifically, isolation and the lack of social integration during different training phases due to the need to transition between phases, and suboptimal PhD advising; the other challenges experienced by then-current MD-PhD students included a perceived lack of curricular integration as well as cultural differences between the MD and PhD phases of training ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ). The current study expands upon findings from that earlier study to examine factors that compelled some students to leave their MD-PhD training altogether, and during which phase they left the program.

Despite the small sample size, study findings add to our understanding of the challenges of completing the requirements for the dual MD-PhD as part of a lengthy and disjointed training program. Participants described a complex interplay between students, faculty, and the administrators, resulting in experiencing difficulties with assimilation and immersion into different MD-PhD program cultures through which they transitioned during training. Prior to entering the MD-PhD program, each of these participants reported having had substantial and positive research experiences in college. However, although potentially crucial for decisions to enroll in MD-PhD programs ( Jeffe et al., 2014b ), and even to apply for and be accepted to medical school in general ( Andriole et al., 2015 ), having substantial, positive college research experiences was not enough to keep these participants in the MD-PhD program. Most of those who left PhD training were still interested in pursuing research in the future, but they did not feel the need for a PhD. According to the 2014 NIH Physician-Scientist Workforce Working Group Report ( Feldman, 2014 ), some of the contributors to a leaky workforce include an aging physician-scientist population, long and poorly compensated training, and fewer role models (especially for women and URMs).

For participants who left their MD-PhD training program, the MD-PhD dual degree ultimately did not seem to enhance their career prospects as a researcher; an MD degree alone was deemed sufficient to conduct clinical research. From these participants’ perspectives, what mattered most for research were the grants that people were awarded, the publications, and even faculty appointments. From their point of view, the PhD degree did little to enhance what an MD could offer.

The literature, however, shows benefits of MD-PhD program participation for sustaining and promoting medical students’ intentions to pursue full-time academic-medicine careers ( Jeffe et al., 2008 ) and acquiring full-time faculty appointments ( Andriole & Jeffe, 2016 ). More than half of MD-PhD graduates in a national cohort of medical school matriculants received academic-medicine faculty appointments ( Jeffe et al., 2012 ) compared with only 18% of MD graduates ( Andriole & Jeffe, 2012 ; Jeffe et al., 2012 ). In addition, compared with MD graduates in this same cohort, MD-PhD graduates were more likely to receive each of individual postdoctoral research fellowships (F32) awards, career development (mentored-K) awards, and research project grants (R01) in models controlling for a number of demographic, research related, and academic variables ( Jeffe & Andriole, 2018 ). Moreover, MD-PhD program graduation also has been shown to be a significant mediator of observed racial/ethnic disparities in mentored-K awards in this national cohort ( Andriole et al., 2017 ).

The most prominent finding of the current study is that most participants who left MD-PhD training did so during the PhD-phase. Prior research on PhD-program attrition suggested that PhD training, including in MD-PhD dual-degree programs, was particularly problematic for students who could not integrate well with their peers during this PhD phase of the program ( Golde, 2000 ). Some of the factors related to PhD-program attrition include social isolation ( Ali et al., 2007 ) and the nature of advising, including perceptions of autonomy and relatedness during dissertation ( Burns & Gillespie, 2018 ). Doctoral faculty tend to attribute causes of doctoral-student attrition to student-level factors, often not acknowledging the role of departmental factors ( Gilmore et al., 2016 ). This is despite evidence that the departmental climate and advisers play an important role in their students’ abilities to complete or not complete their training ( Devos et al., 2016 ). Although other factors such as experiencing mental health and adjustment issues due to the impostor phenomenon (where doctoral students feel like intellectual frauds) have not been documented in the literature on doctoral students’ attrition, such factors have influenced student experiences during doctoral training ( Chakraverty, 2019 ; 2020a , 2020b , 2020c ).

Findings from student participants who were still completing requirements for the MD-PhD program identified the importance of more advanced students serving as peer mentors ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ). Both then-current MD-PhD students in that study and MD-PhD program drop-outs mentioned the critical need for good faculty mentors, and especially MD-PhD mentors who overcame the challenges they faced as students completing MD-PhD training. Both faculty and peer mentors who have faced similar challenges can provide unique insight into what this long and complex training entails ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ). Notably, none of the participants who dropped out of the MD-PhD program mentioned having supportive peer mentors.

Purposefully building mentoring relationships might help MD-PhD students stay the course during challenging times. Such mentorship groups could involve an MD-PhD student, more advanced MD-PhD students or recent MD-PhD graduates, and faculty, because transitioning between MD-PhD program phases is particularly challenging for these students ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ).

MD-PhD students who left the program described many challenges assimilating into each program phase due to the disjointed structure of MD-PhD training that did not allow specific program support for socialization and integration. Students transitioning from MD to PhD phases were expected to already know the values and culture of PhD training as well as what was expected of them during PhD training to be able to blend in, something that participants did not always know. Such seamless integration between the different phases was challenging for the MD-PhD students interviewed, but also may require specific integration strategies through re-immersion programs ( Goldberg & Insel, 2013 ) and career-development programs ( Ciampa et al., 2011 ) at each transition. We strongly recommend such academic and socialization strategies to facilitate cultural integration within a program that is as complex as the MD-PhD dual-degree program.

Previous research reported that women and URM students were less likely to be MD-PhD program graduates compared with all other MD program graduates ( Andriole et al., 2008 ); however, in a national cohort study of MD-PhD program matriculants, neither gender nor race/ethnicity were independently associated with overall attrition from MD-PhD training ( Jeffe et al, 2014a ). Our findings show that while evaluating the possible benefits of pursuing the MD-PhD, participants in the present study mostly discussed the disadvantages of a long training time. MD-PhD completion time increased from an average of 6.6 years in 1980 to 8.0 years between 1998 and 2007 ( Brass et al., 2010 ). Such a long training period may itself be a deterrent to program completion, delaying the time to achieve research independence and leading some students to choose clinical practice over research ( Gordon, 2012 ). Notably, however, the time to first R01, the hallmark of research independence, was nearly 2 years shorter from time of graduation for MD-PhD than MD graduates ( Jeffe & Andriole, 2018 ).

Limitations

This was an exploratory study of a very small sample of mostly White individuals who did not complete the MD-PhD program in the U.S. Given the small sample size and homogeneous demography, the findings are not generalizable to the larger MD-PhD student population, in the U.S. or elsewhere. Although age at the time of starting MD-PhD training was not asked, it is evident that most, if not all started their MD-PhD training in their twenties. Further, two participants in their forties and sixties, both medical school faculty when they were interviewed, recalled their experiences in the MD-PhD program from more than a decade before being interviewed, which could be affected by recall bias; however, their experiences were similar to the other participants who only recently left their MD-PhD program when they were interviewed. Nevertheless, findings provide important insight into the reasons for discontinuing their MD-PhD training through a qualitative examination of MD-PhD student narratives, which, to our knowledge, has never before been undertaken. However, the phenomenon of MD-PhD program attrition needs to be examined in greater detail, with a larger and more diverse sample of MD-PhD students who left the program. In addition, we did not elaborate on thematic reasons that were not reported by multiple people, which does not mean that reasons reported by only one person were not important. Nor does it mean that reasons reported only by one person here would not be reported as a recurrent theme had we had interviewed a larger sample of participants who had left the MD-PhD program. Indeed, only one participant, who was Hispanic, described in detail how her decision to leave the program was influenced by the need to stay close to her family and Hispanic community. Although the racial/ethnic diversity of MD-PhD program graduates increased from 5.0% of graduates from URM groups in 1995 to 9.6% in 2015 ( AAMC, 2016 ), URM representation among MD-PhD graduates is considerably lower than their overall representation of more than 30% in the U.S. population ( Colby & Ortman, 2017 ). Additional research is needed to examine URM MD-PhD students’ reasons for MD-PhD program attrition.

Implications and future directions

The findings of this study provide a perspective to understand doctoral research capacity building. While capacity building at the micro-level examines how students transition between the various phases of their training and transform into scholars ( Lovitts, 2005 ), capacity building at the macro-level examines the larger-level trends such as increasing demographic diversity and skill building ( Trostle, 1992 ). Overall, building one’s capacity to be an independent investigator should ideally entail structured mentoring and supervision in the relevant content area, developing specialized, transferable skills, as well as professional development and mentoring to learn about a variety of career prospects outside academia. MD-PhD program attrition can have both micro- and macro-level implications. Micro-level implications include costs to funding agencies and MD-PhD programs ( Jeffe & Andriole, 2011 ; Jeffe et al., 2014a ), as well as to faculty mentors and students themselves (i.e., in time lost and financial burden). It also has macro-level implications in terms of a reduction in the cadre of highly trained, clinical and translational science researchers. Although based on a small sample size, the fact that most attrition happened at the PhD-training level calls for a deeper examination of the challenges students described herein regarding their experiences during the PhD-training phase of MD-PhD training. Findings shed light on situations and experiences that dissuaded these students from completing their PhD training. We urge future research to more deeply examine how interactions among students, faculty and administrators in various settings, such as classrooms, research labs, and clinics, and between different schools and departments, can help MD-PhD students fully integrate into each new program phase they are entering and to continue in the program to completion.

As women and some racial/ethnic groups are underrepresented among MD-PhD program trainees ( Jeffe et al., 2014b ), increasing the diversity of trainees in MD-PhD programs might ultimately serve to increase both the size and diversity of the larger physician-scientist workforce to better meet the needs of an increasingly diverse population ( Milewicz et al., 2015 ; NIH, 2014 ). Examining MD-PhD training experiences through the lens of gender and race/ethnicity should be undertaken in future research with a larger and more diverse sample.

Although greater planned career involvement in research at matriculation was observed to be a predictor of MD-PhD program completion ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ), we found that extenuating circumstances during students’ training in these programs, and apparently, especially during the PhD phase of training, served to derail some of these students’ aspirations to graduate with the MD-PhD dual degree. Attendance at institutions with MSTP funding has been shown to be beneficial and predictive in terms of MD-PhD program completion ( Jeffe et al., 2014a ), and students who attended schools supported by MSTP funds especially benefited during their PhD training ( Goldstein & Brown, 1997 ; Jeffe & Andriole, 2011 ; NIH-NIGMS, 1998 ). However, students whose research is funded solely by their advisers’/mentors’ grants are at greater risk of dropping out of the program for lack of funding, if the advisers’/mentors’ labs closed because they could not renew their grants in the middle of the MD-PhD student’s training in their lab. Institutional MSTP funding has been found to be predictive of students’ retention in the program ( Jeffe & Andriole, 2011 ) and of faculty appointment among MD-PhD graduates ( Andriole & Jeffe, 2016 ).

This paper examined interview responses from seven participants in a larger study who left their MD-PhD programs before completing training; two participants had completed the MD and were academic-medicine faculty, four were completing medical school, and one dropped out of medicine to complete a PhD in Education. Participants reported enrolling in MD-PhD programs to work in both clinical practice and research. Very positive college research experiences, mentorship, and personal reasons played big roles in participants’ decisions to pursue the dual MD-PhD degree. However, once in the program, the influence of earlier positive role models and opportunities that drew candidates to the program was found lacking in the MD-PhD program and weakened their resolve to continue to completion. Four themes emerged as reasons for leaving the MD-PhD program: declining interest in research, isolation and lack of social integration during the different training phases, unsatisfactory PhD-advising/mentoring, and unforeseen obstacles to completing PhD research requirements. We conclude that providing better institutional and social support for the timely completion of research and targeted research mentorship are essential to retaining and promoting the success of students during the PhD phase of their MD-PhD program training. The themes that emerged from participants’ narratives in the current study suggest that targeting interventions to improve students’ educational and research experiences, mentorship, and integration into the different cultures of each program phase are crucial for retention of MD-PhD students through to completion of the program. These same challenges arising from having to transition into different phases of the MD-PhD program were described as well in a larger sample of 68 students who were still in training for the dual MD-PhD degree ( Chakraverty et al., 2018 ). Through a deeper examination of reasons for attrition, MD-PhD programs can find ways to improve training experiences and improve student retention; this can strengthen the biomedical-research-workforce capacity.

Acknowledgment

The authors thank all those who participated in this study and shared their experiences as well as other members of the research team who helped in data collection. This work was supported by a grant from the NIH National Institute of General Medical Sciences (NIGMS) (R01 GM094535). D.B.J. was also supported by NIGMS R01 GM085350. Preliminary findings were presented at the 2017 American Educational Research Association Annual Meeting in San Antonio, TX, and at the 2017 Association of American Medical Colleges Annual Meeting in Boston, MA.

Devasmita Chakraverty , Ph.D., is Assistant Professor at the Ravi J. Matthai Centre for Educational Innovation, Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad, India. Her research has focused on workforce development in science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and medicine (STEMM). Prior research published in CBE- Life Sciences Education has examined transition experiences of students during MD-PhD training. She also examines reasons why students and professionals experience the impostor phenomenon in STEMM. Dr. Chakraverty has earned a Ph.D. (Science Education) from the University of Virginia, M.P.H. from the School of Public Health, University of Washington, and M.Sc. (Environmental Sciences) from the University of Calcutta (India).

Contributor Information

Devasmita Chakraverty, Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad, Ahmedabad, India.

Donna B. Jeffe, Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO, U.S.A.

Katherine P. Dabney, Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA, U.S.A.

Robert H. Tai, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA, U.S.A.

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PHD Minimus Degree 300 K Down Sleeping Bag

• schlafsackdaune

Von Stephanie 4. Mai 2020 in Ausrüstung

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Hallo Zusammen, 

auf der Suche nach einem ultraleichten Dauenschlafsack für meinen nächsten Thruhike bin ich gestern das erste mal auf dieses Modell gestoßen: 

PHD Minimus Degree 300 K Down Sleeping Bag ( https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minimus-degree-300-down-sleeping-bag )

Ich hoffe es ist in Ordnung/erlaubt den Link mitzuschicken. 

Ich suche etwas mit einer Komfortzone round about 0°C und dachte das der Cumlus x-lite 400, Komfort -1 bei einem Gewicht von 575 gr. (Größe M-L) schon echt unschlagbar ist. Nun habe ich das oben stehende Modell gefunden mit 1000 cuin und einen Gewicht von 445 gramm (wohlgemerkt ohne Reißverschluss). Bei der Temperaturangabe bin ich mir jedoch unsicher. Auf der Seite steht  "TYPICAL OPERATING TEMPERATURE -3°C / 26.6°F". Handelt es sich hierbei um die Komfort-Temperatur oder was ist in GB eine "TYPICAL OPERATING TEMPERATURE"? 

Kann mir jemand bezüglich der Temperaturangaben weiter helfen? Leider finde ich auch nichts zur Limit oder Extrem-Angabe.

Hat jemand diesen Schlafsack und kann mir hinsichtlich der Qualität/Wärmeleistung/Langlebigkeit etwas sagen?

Des Weiteren bietet die Firma die Option eines Reißverschlusses am Schlafsack (lang oder kurz). Mich würde nun interessieren was ist denn kurz bei PHD? 1/3, 2/3, 1/2...? Ich finde es ist eine interessante Frage im Hinblick den Schlafsack als halbe Decke zu benutzten, falls einem zu warm ist und man aber trotzdem das Gewicht eines ganzen Reißverschlusses sparen möchte.

Liebe Grüße, Steffi

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Temperatur:

https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/temperature-ratings-for-down-sleeping-bags-and-down-clothing

Reißverschluß:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukxrSJHWMoM&feature=emb_title

Problem eines Schlafsacks mit sehr kurzem Reißverschluss (oder ganz ohne) ist, dass man mit dem Verwendungsbereich stark eingeschränkt ist. Man kann die Temperatur kaum regulieren und Hitze staut sich an. Zudem kommt man nicht so leicht herein. Mit Kleidung und viel bzw. wenig Kalorien am Abend kann man aber etwas Einfluss auf das Temperaturempfinden nehmen, zudem gibt es ja Inlets wie Vapour Barrier Liner, die in nasskalten Nächten etwas helfen können. Da scheinbar ein Wärmekragen bei dem verlinkten Modell fehlt, gibt es noch eine Möglichkeit weniger, kalte Luft in den Schlafsack zu lassen... Ich persönlich habe mir nur einen leichten Schlafsack ohne richtigen Zipper geholt, um ihn bei Wintertouren in den Hauptschlafsack zu packen. Die Temperaturangaben von PHD wirken realistisch für den durchschnittlichen Mann . Für den normalen Einsatz lohnt sich so ein Modell meiner Ansicht nach nicht, vor allem weil es leichtere und flexiblere Lösungen gibt: Quilts.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Stephanie: Kann mir jemand bezüglich der Temperaturangaben weiter helfen? Leider finde ich auch nichts zur Limit oder Extrem-Angabe.

Ich würde mal sagen: bei technisch identischer Daune (die "1000er" ist nach europäischem Maß eine gebräuchliche 900er, in den USA eine 950er) wie bei Cumulus und absolut vergleichbarem Gewebe gibt es keinen Grund, warum ein PHD-Schlafsack so viel besser isolieren sollte. Die 2°C Komfort vom vergleichbaren X-Lite 300 sind für viele schon unten auf Kante genäht, die -3°C Angabe von PHD sehe ich deshalb als Entsprechung zur Limit-Angabe bei Cumulus. Für den PCT haben mir fast alle etwas deutlich wärmeres empfohlen. Ich würde mit dem PHD vermutlich nicht losziehen wenn ich mehrere Nächte unter 5°C zu erwarten hätte.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Harakiri: Die Temperaturangaben von PHD wirken realistisch für den durchschnittlichen Mann .

Ich besitze einen vergleichbaren Schlafsack eines anderen Herstellers: https://malachowski.pl/web/en/sleeping-bags/69-spiwor-puchowy-300-ii-ultralight.html

Hard Facts: 300g Daune, 495g, 260 € - er ist damit genauso schwer wie ein Cumulus 250 Quilt. Ich würde mir den phd Schlafsack für diesen Preis nicht kaufen, 600 € mit Zipper ist einfach zu viel. Dabei ist der PHD mit full Zipp auch noch 100g schwerer als meiner. Dinge die ich mit diesem Schlafsack gelernt habe: Sehr leicht bedeutet bei Schlafsäcken (/ Quilts) sehr eng (und kurz). Diesen Punkt habe ich auch in seiner Praxisrelevanz stark unterschätzt. Sowohl bei Quilts als auch bei Schlafsäcken ist i"n doubt- size up" sinnvoll. Es bringt dir Bequemlichkeit und Wärme einen größeren Schlafsack zu haben. 

• Harakiri reagierte darauf

Mountain_Dog

vor 1 Stunde schrieb BitPoet: Ich würde mal sagen: bei technisch identischer Daune (die "1000er" ist nach europäischem Maß eine gebräuchliche 900er, in den USA eine 950er) wie bei Cumulus und absolut vergleichbarem Gewebe gibt es keinen Grund, warum ein PHD-Schlafsack so viel besser isolieren sollte. Die 2°C Komfort vom vergleichbaren X-Lite 300 sind für viele schon unten auf Kante genäht, die -3°C Angabe von PHD sehe ich deshalb als Entsprechung zur Limit-Angabe bei Cumulus. Für den PCT haben mir fast alle etwas deutlich wärmeres empfohlen. Ich würde mit dem PHD vermutlich nicht losziehen wenn ich mehrere Nächte unter 5°C zu erwarten hätte. Als Komforttemperatur aber nur für einen durchschnittlichen, vollgefressenen, ausgeruhten Mann .

Unabhängig vom Sinn eines solchen Schlafsacks

Aber ist phd nicht aus GB, dort müssten die 1000cuin ja eigentlich nach europäischem Maßstab gemessen sein?

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Mountain_Dog: Aber ist phd nicht aus GB, dort müssten die 1000cuin ja eigentlich nach europäischem Maßstab gemessen sein?

Eigentlich ja. Wenn ich 1000 cuin lese, dann ist das aber mehr als fraglich, vor allem, wenn der Preis deutlich  unterhalb von 1000€ liegt anstatt massiv darüber. Schon die 1000 cuin nach US-Methode erreicht man meines Wissens nur mit 100% per Hand aufwändig nachsortierter polarer Eiderentendaune. Wenn ich dann bei der Handvoll Anbieter, die 1000 cuin bewerben (RAB, TNF) Polar-Schneegans lese, dann erscheinen einige Fragezeichen. Mit dem "Verzicht" auf ein halbwegs vergleichbares Temperatur-Rating hat das Angebot für mich einen deutlichen Geruch. Etwa wie die Daunendecken von Black Forest, die für 699€ angeblich 450g 1000cuin-Daune enthalten. Ich kann mich natürlich irren, für wahrscheinlich halte ich es aber nicht.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb BitPoet: Wenn ich 1000 cuin lese, dann ist das aber mehr als fraglich, vor allem, wenn der Preis deutlich  unterhalb von 1000€ liegt anstatt massiv darüber. 

Geil! Wo gibt es etwas über 1000 €? Immerhin könnte dies für meine Ansprüche knapp genügen - bisher habe ich nichts entsprechendes gefunden. Oder meinst Du sowas ? Ist eher für Yellowblazing geeignet und wird kaum 950er drin haben. 

Im Ernst: Der Unterschied zwischen 850 und 950er Daune liegt bei EE bei 100 $. Bei Feathered Friends gibts etwas für 579 $ in 950, die sind auch nicht direkt der Dacia unter den Schlafsack Herstellenden. 

Die Angaben von EE halte ich sogar für einigermassen glaubwürdig. Im 2018 kamen die in die Diskussion wegen ziemlich optimistischer Temperaturangaben und mussten Folge dessen viele Reklamationen bearbeiten. Die werden sich hüten, 950er zu versprechen und es dann nicht zu halten.

Natürlich interessiert mich auch die Ethik. WM sagt, ihre Daune komme aus der Nesting-Area der Gänse, sie werde gesammelt, wenn die Gänse vergnügt draussen herum plantschen. EE sagt RDS, FF sagt RDS, bluesign und Nachverfolgbarkeit der ganzen Lieferkette durch den Endkunden. 

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Chris Blattman

When are you too old for a phd.

• June 12, 2015

A fewf years ago a reader wrote me to ask how old is too old to start a PhD. Will schools penalize your application, and is it harder to get a job?

I blogged some thoughts in this spot. Not very deep ones. 18 months later, to my surprise, it was my most-read post of 2014: almost 40,000 views. Clearly, it was time to write a more thoughtful post. I sought input from readers and here’s what I’ve got.

In my case, I was 28 when I started my PhD and 33 when I finished. There were a handful of people older than me in the class, in their mid-thirties. Probably the median was about 25. Even though I wasn’t that much older, my (tenured) advisor was two weeks younger than me. That smarted a little.

Anyways, there were some clear advantages and disadvantages. I’ll talk about what I experienced, and what people who started older than me have added.

The short answer I like best came from one reader : “if you’re curious enough, never.” True, it is never too late to advance your professional career or your personal fulfillment with a PhD. With two important caveats. First, you properly understand the time, cost, and job prospects. Second, that if your goal is to enter elite programs and advance the research frontier, I think this gets tougher as you get older.

If you’re under 35, I don’t think age will be a huge concern for an admissions committee. They are mostly concerned with your raw intellectual potential and ability to produce distinguished research.

Naturally, an admission committee will look at your career and consider what it says about you, whether it’s going to contribute to or detract from your research potential, and what the career switch says about your focus. So a lot will depend on your specific story and experience.

I’ve sat on committees where experience was an advantage: political science applicants who had spent many years as international correspondents or in the state department, economics applicants who had spent several years in Treasury or finance, or sustainable development PhDs with careers in environmental science. All are field where applied knowledge is useful, rather than raw intellectual fluidity and power (as in, say, in math or economic theory).

All the successful applied applicants I know, however, had a good rationale for a PhD and a very clear intellectual and academic thread to their previous work.

On balance, I do think that thirty-something applicants are treated with some suspicion, and that the burden is on them to make a case that they are going to be intellectually vibrant and focused. But only a little. Don’t sweat it too much, and don’t feel you have to write your statement defensively. Use your statement to describe, like anyone else, what questions interest yo and how you want to push the field ahead.

(For related advice, see my advice on whether and how to apply to PhDs , whether an MA program is for you , and how to get a PhD and save the world .)

If you’re over 35, I think admissions committees will start to wonder how much of a contribution to the field you can make, starting late and presumably having less time to contribute. This will matter most at elite research institutions.

Indeed, all of the above advice mainly applies to the top research universities and PhD programs. Their goal is to train the generation who will push the field ahead in terms of research. There are many more PhD programs that serve people who want to research, teach, practice (e.g. in the private sector, government of international organizations), or simply learn.

My sense is that there are dozens of very good research universities with PhD programs who not only are used to older applicants, but welcome them for these purposes.

Career considerations

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

• If you have an MA already, you might get away with a 2-3 year PhD at some universities (e.g. the UK), though almost never in the US. Plan on a minimum of 5 years, and more likely 6-8 depending on your discipline.
• At best your program will cover your tuition and living expenses, and you won’t graduate with debt. You can calculate the present value of your salary sacrifice, and it will probably be large. Many people make their peace with this choice (I did) but do make it a conscious choice.
• Remember that your counterfactual to a PhD is to spend 5-6 years investing in something else: your current job, a new career, a non-PhD skill set, etc. Some of these opportunities might actually be paid. They will get you experience, respect, and great opportunities. The opportunity cost of a PhD in terms of salary and other work is high. This is true for every age, of course. Your opportunity cost as a more experienced person is probably higher, though.
• Make sure you understand your post-PhD career options. In some disciplines, like economics, there’s a lot of demand for PhDs and almost everyone gets a well-paid professional or academic job. Political science too, I think. Academic and even professional jobs in your field get scarcer in some social sciences and the humanities. I once heard that under a third of graduates from the best history programs in the world get academic jobs.
• If you’re not planning on becoming a professor, think twice about a PhD. Yes it might advance you in your field. But most jobs I know would reward six years of intensive experience in many things, not just a PhD. I’m not sure the PhD is rewarded more. You have to want it for its own sake.
• A lot of people gripe about the terrible options for many PhDs, and the maltreatment of adjunct professors. This says to me that a lot of people get a PhD with erroneous expectations.
• PhD students are not known for being good at managing people, projects, or money. Presumably you learned a few things about being a professional whatever you’ve been doing. This will serve you well, and make up for some of the disadvantages of age. Maybe even more than compensate. Certainly my experience as a management consultant helped me run large research project better and sooner.
• When you’re done, as long as you’re under 35 or 40, faculty hiring committees are probably going to focus more on what you can do relative to your cohort rather than your age. They might not even look at your age or previous experience. If you’re over 40, then yes I think you’ll see job market discrimination with any major career change, whatever the career.
• You may or may not enjoy being around a lot of 25-year old peers, and being treated similarly by your professors.
• Unless you have savings or take on debt, you may have a much poorer lifestyle than you’ve grown accustomed to.
• You’re more likely to have family or financial obligations when you’re older, and so you’ll have less freedom when you graduate to make high-return investments that are far flung or unpaid. Some jobs, post-docs, or fellowships won’t work out for your more complicated personal situation. You might also not be able or willing to pull 12-hour days for the same reasons.
• This is true of any later-life career change, of course, especially ones in non-profit sectors or public service.
• Once you’re in it, remember that no one finds a PhD easy. It is a constant source of existential angst when you’re in the midst of it. Just know that everyone else feels the same way, and it’s not a special product of how old you are or what you brought.
• As one commenter put it , “I’m tempted to counter, when are you too young?” A good point. Here is another person voicing the same view. A topic for another day.

Other PhDs or faculty out there have comments?

277 Responses

Well, for me age is only the numbers to any thing, especially for the PhD in my opinion there’s no age limit to do it. you only need the passion to learn and adapt the capability to do it. That’s it

To Satyajay: Well, that may be so and often refusal is typical for those programs and institutions that are narrowly tailored to recommending post-docs, and finding tenure-track research positions for their younger charges. in general, older PhDs continue to face all types of roadblocks, stereotypes and outmoded behaviors no matter where they are. Money is always is a concern since most PhD students rely on fellowships and other forms of assistance. Often the institution will not welcome a student into the group because in a social sense — the old one does not fit into the club’s idea of who and what a PhD student should be. PhD clubs, as I call them, are still alive and well, though the trend is slowly changing toward acceptance and inclusion. I know several PhDs who have very secure teaching positions. They were hired at 50+ years. What I find interesting is the continual air of superiority that pervades the PhD club. I still say, if you want that degree, go for it and ignore the rest as best you can.

I think if your guide/supervisor is younger to you in age then they may not like to take you into their group as after completion of coursework,thesis,viva,degree etc. they may not be able to recommend you for a post-doc due to the reason of you being older to them

I appreciate everyone ‘s responses to this question. Of course I googled the question because I am 35 and I too think I am getting old for a PhD. Considering my family is growing (bigger than I had ever imagined), I have responsibilities. Though I have to say that my unique family structure gives me a bit more flexibility than most families so for that I am grateful. But I want to provide for my family and at the moment I’m not bringing in so much income. I feel I have finally decided on the perfect program for my PhD venture. PhD in Peace Studies & Sociology at the University of Notre Dame. Yes, Notre Dame! I never ever imagined the University of Notre Dame but after taking a grad lever qualitative social research course as an auditor, with my mentor Dr. M, I was able to add a significant piece to the puzzle of my journey. So I thank you all for your comments and for giving me a spark to continue and know that age really doesn’t matter. Though I am not officially accepted in the Peace Program at the Kroc Institute at Notre Dame, I am very excited.

totalsporteks is a best website

Getting ready to graduate with my PhD in ed tech with a stats cognate. Finished in three years while working full time, raising young children, and making a 1.25 hour commute two to three times a week to get to class. I was hired for a university tenure-track position as a first-year doctoral student. I’m a 40 year old woman. What can I say? I have grit.

I think if you are not interested in doing a PhD,then once you are 32 or 32+,you cann’t be enrolled for a PhD,but if you are interested in doing a PhD,then at any age you can be enrolled for a PhD

Feel every moment of the State of Origin, opening game of the 2018 Holden State of Origin series on Wednesday 6 June, at Melbourne’s iconic MCG.

So sorry about the above typos — I am writing a lecture, took a break and zoomed into this site. “to hear” of other older students is what I wanted to say.

I am so happy to here of other over 60 and successful PhDs It has been a while since I commented on this page, as I am busy working on a paper and revising my dissertation for a monograph. I also have a full load of teaching at the local community college. It is far from the usual moonlight adjunct job. I also am mentoring two honors students in history with their special projects. While it is not a tenured position, few college/univ. jobs are anymore, it suits me and affords me time for research and writing. I am over 65 now and retiring is far from my mind I agree that perhaps 70 is the new 50 and definitely we need to rethink the entire educational framework — especially here in the USA. One of my honors student is 57 and wants to be an art teacher. She will be 61 when she finishes teacher training, I hope she makes it and lands her dream job. Again I say to all older students — Go For It!

At 63, I’m finishing an LLM (advanced Law) degree, and my intellectual curiousity is only growing greater. What is striking to me is how simple-minded things like law school are at this age, when they are a challenge for kids in their 20’s and even real people in their 30’s. It’s like at this age, you already know the answers (LOL)! We may have to rethink education as 70 becomes the new 50, both medically and intellectually.

I obtained my PhD at age 65 years; it took 3.5 years and I have never looked back. However, while my PhD became a wonderful experience, ageism was initially experienced and this is my PhD story; one that reveals ingrained social attitudes and individual self-determination. I started my PhD in Education at a top UK Russell Group university at the age of 61, after having worked in a research centre as an administrator looking after the needs of PhD students. Initially I handed my draft 5000 word proposal to 2 academics and was told that it ‘was up there with the very best of them’ and I was advised to submit my application right away. I did so. After months of waiting and chasing and being ignored, upset, I asked one senior academic if he could check it out. Consequently I received an offer for PhD study and planned to use my redundancy money (the research centre I worked in had closed in a university restructure). Yet on my first day of PhD study, I was called into the Programme Officer’s office. She told me that my second supervisor – a young lady about 30 yrs old who had passed her PhD a year previously – did not think I should be doing PhD as I lacked passion, would get very tired and they did not want to take my money which would be wasted, and she agreed with this. I was told that they did not think I realised what a PhD entailed, what I would be taking on. I firmly argued that I had an BA hons, an MA with the Open University (OU), a PGCE in research methods with the OU – all studied part-time while working full-time and raising a family – and that I had worked for years with PhD students discussing their thesis ideas and encouraging them when the going got tough. It was what I really wanted to do. In the end I won the argument as I refused to step down, but this first-day left me dismayed and wondering what help I would get with my research. Most academics were very nice and supportive but over the next 7 weeks it was clear that the Programme Manager and my second supervisor were not prepared to give any encouragement. Their body language and facial expressions made their attitude to me clear and I was told (incorrectly) that my previous studies in history and English bore no relation to my PhD research with a sociological framework. Yet, as I felt miserable and crushed, a new door opened. Another top UK institution had also accepted my research proposal and I had declined as the university was further from my home. They now contacted me again, asking if I was currently happy or would I like to go and have a chat. There seemed little to lose and I went along pouring out what I had experienced since starting PhD. They assured me my research proposal was detailed, well written and showed passion. They understood that women like me, born in 1949 to working-class parents who thought education for girls was unnecessary, had been disadvantaged in their life – (My parents refused to let me sit the 11+ for grammar school or to study GCE “O’ levels, insisting I learned shorthand and typing at night school and go to work at age 15 – after all I would marry and have kids, any job would do till then). After leaving a rough school in 1965 with no qualifications I studied exams over future decades at evening classes but higher education became possible with widening participation in the 1990s. My A-level history teacher at night-school suggested a degree and, amazed, I applied to a local college offering HE degrees (it is now a university in its own right). I obtained my BA hons over 5 years part-time evening study, then joined the OU for postgraduate qualifications in history and research methods. With such encouragement from the second university for my PhD, I went back to the Student Services in the Russel Group University where I had spent 7 weeks and told them what had happened and that I wanted to transfer to the University of Reading, IoE. I never looked back. They could see I was a good independent researcher, they let me work and research, advised and guided when required, and I passed my PhD Viva after 3.5 years with two small minor corrections which I did immediately. I had loved doing it but at 65 years, what was next? Well I had worked on several projects for the university as I did my PhD, earning a little income, so had gained good experience. Head of school and supervisors told me I was a model student; the hardest working they had ever had. After a year they employed me part-time on a longitudinal contract which I am still enjoying. While doing this I decided to write a book, using my PhD data, and put in a book proposal to a reputable publisher. The Editorial Board accepted my proposal, once revised to satisfy reviewers, and my book was published in December 2017. This has been thrilling, to think I have published a book at age 68 years – and collaborated on 2 published journal papers. Now I want to think about my next publication. The PhD experience, shaping and deepening my knowledge and thinking, plus the book, has increased my confidence and happiness. For decades I felt useless in society, as a woman always put down. I did jobs I did not like (even in factories) just to earn money to survive, yet from age 60 my brain was delighting in accumulating wider, deeper knowledge, in writing, in learning and understanding. Recently I put myself forward as a candidate for a political party and was duly elected to stand in the May local elections. Challenges in earlier life were ‘not possible’ being a working-class woman particularly with a mother and sister suffering mental illnesses. But now I know I can take on challenges that appeal; societal attitudes have changed and are still changing Having a go, can lead one along unexpected paths and hugely increase quality of life. Yes, one needs to pace oneself, especially over 50 or 60+ years of age, to sensibly take rests when eye strain occurs or tiredness ensues, but plan and time manage well and you will succeed. Education is key – at any age!! Go for it.

@art Fulley No online program engages in ageism… that’s not “the kind” of program that we are talking about here.

Anyone know an online accredited clinical psychology program that does not engage in ageism?

Not truly relevant to most of the discussion, but my father has just passed his viva, aged 78, having started an MA when he was 71

Awesome. Some years ago, I had an 80 year something veteran taking one of my beginning computer classes. He kept plugging away and his enthusiasm for learning was inspirational to other students to be sure. Be very proud of your father. You have the right to be!

I started my Ph.D. program at the age of 38. I was not the oldest (by far). In fact, most of my colleagues were in their mid-to late 30’s. In my field, the good programs in Public Health require 5 years of professional experience to meet the minimum requirements for admission to the program. I graduated with my degree 3 years later. I started the program with a Master’s degree, but in a different field. I only experience a few raised eyebrows when applying for post-doctorate positions, but was offered and accepted a junior faculty position at a very well-known institution. Now, twelve years later I have advanced in the field and am now a Associate Professor and Program Director at a research institution. If you have a really good reason for getting a Ph.D., it shouldn’t matter what other people think about your age. There are opportunities available, especially if you are getting a Ph.D. in the medical sciences.

Thank you for sharing your story, ALM. In some cases, fields of study are relatively new compared to other disciplines and are cutting edge. I recently retired at a major land-grant university that had a new Masters of Public Health program and because of my expertise in the human aspects of natural resources management, I was invited to teach the Environmental Health course for the Public Health program. Because I belonged to a different department, this was a ‘teaching overload’. My class sizes were typically 25 to 35 students, some of whom were biologists, Pharm Ds and other health professions. There were three oncologists from a local hospital in my last class. I recall having a student or two with an animal science or plant science background. The other uniqueness were the number of Tribal members and international students going through the program, which added much depth and breadth to the class discussions. I think that the graduate work in Public Health is still evolving and is a fantastic opportunity for anyone considering a Ph.D. no matter the age.

Admittedly, as it happened to the two institutions I approached (both teaching unis!) and I don’t really have much exposure as to how grad schools operate, I did assume back then it must be the norm and let the desire go–though, obviously, not totally let it go as here I am reading your blog post :D Hopefully, life situation aligns again favoring going back to school and find the right one. Appreciate your reply, Bruce, thanks!

Sorry to sound so simplistic, but why do they (the institution and faculty) make it hard for one to enroll for a Master’s or PhD? It’s not a free service/mentorship out of the goodness of their hearts as students pay tuition and it’s not cheap. Why are they assuming the position of judgment whether a candidate will be able to contribute or not post-degree, what’s with the academic elitism? Their job is to educate, first and foremost, the willing, are they not?

I applied for science-related course a few years ago, in my early 30s. The curt replies I received when they found out I was more than a decade out of school was so off-putting. My questions above is just mere curiosity.

Van, there are serveral factors for turning down applicants depending on the institution’s mission. A research university, for instance, relies on financial sources such as grants, and the number of advisees that faculty members can handle. On the other hand, being more than a decade out of school as an excuse from a teaching university or college is their loss. I personally know several non-traditional students who took two graduate classes before declaring their major to “see how it fits.” They showed themselves and the institute that they would do well and were consequently admitted. The question I have for you: would you want to attend an institution with the mind-set that you are put off because you were more than a decade out of school? Henry Ford was purported to say, “Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty.” Apply at a different institution.

I think 35 to 40 is enough for completing your PhD but if you are fit and your mind working very well then there will be no time limit for you to complete your degree.

Bruckner, Franck, Janacek, Carter, Beethoven, Chabrier, Haydn, Verdi, all made huge major siginicant contributions to MUSIC COMPOSITION AFTER AGE 45. NOW TAKE THIS LIST AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR MOTHER FUCKING ASS.

I love all the comments here and the encouragement. would love to connect with few of you who have pursued a PHD in their late 40s. I am there and am completing my MBA next year, want to start a PHD but cannot afford to not work as am a single mom to a 12 year old child. Is it possible to make money and do a PHD ? I could perhaps pull along for a year or so without having an income or having a very minimal income but not more. Please advise.

Anita, I first want to congratulate you in advance on your MBA! To answer your question about earning money while pursuing a PhD, in my experience, yes there is. On the other hand, earning enough to survive is a bit more tricky! Consider seeking graduate research assistance positions, which may help defray tuition and fees plus provide a stipend. A rather sneaky trick I used in my doctoral studies (age 50+) was to ‘fund my own research.’ That gave me the liberty to research my agenda and not rely on department funding from someone else. Some supplement their income from being federal grant ‘reviewers.’ Personally, I wrote and lived off of community grants. Consider sitting down with trusted peers and faculty to brainstorm ways to financially stay afloat. Finally and most importantly, try very hard to stay away from student loans of any kind. I wish you the best!

I started my PhD aged 47 and hope to finish next year when I’ll be 51. Like many others I’m not doing this for an academic career but so that I can undertake better and academically more robust research in my work as a health improvement lead in the UK NHS. I’m doing the PhD part time and the topic is in the area which I have been working in for many years. For me the ‘journey’ of the PhD has been very positive; I have very inspiring supervisors who have years of experience in the field I’m researching, I’ve had all the support and encouragement from my employers as I could wish for (and more) and I have gained invaluable experience and insight into the science of health improvement. At the end of the PhD I’ll go back to my NHS post full-time but with a deeper understanding of the topic and and a wider skill set. That may or may not lead to promotions and increases in salary but promotions in the NHS generally take you further away from research toward strategy and management. Doing the PhD has definitely meant I am better in my NHS role and it means I am a greater asset to my employer and the health service in general (which is why they are so supportive). It has already opened up opportunities to working collaboratively with others who are also undertaking health improvement research within the NHS (and the plan is that this will continue). So long-term I intend to have a non-academic research career within the NHS where I attract research funding in topics of interest to the NHS, that I publish in as prestigious journals as is possible and I focus on implementing improvements in health in an effective and scientifically robust manner (to be honest prior to the PhD those improvement projects I was involved in were a implemented a little haphazardly and with less rigour than they are now).

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The more i search the more i come across to a perfect article as i look for how many pages is 12000 words.

A few days ago I read an article in the local newspaper that a gentleman recently earned his B.A.–at the age of 85. One must first consider that individuals age at different rates and many seniors maintain their intellect well into late age. The other thing to consider is that a PhD may be a life dream and has nothing to do with career or work or earnings; the degree is its own reward. What needs to change is the myopic thinking of academics who can become very fixed in their thinking. I will even go so far as to say that new avenues to leading to graduate degrees need to be explored. One cannot apply the same standards to a man or woman who has spent a lifetime developing wisdom and life skills which someone in their twenties or thirties can’t begin to comprehend. This is a complex issue with no easy solutions. Programs need to be developed specifically for older scholars who wish to pursue advanced degrees. I must also say that the notion that a 65 year old should be put in the position of being a twenty-five year old’s peer is ludicrous. I mean no disrespect here, but in terms of life experience, a twenty-five year old is still a child in some respects.

I started a PhD in Natural Resources when I was 47… did course work, proposal, etc. but did not finish dissertation due to all of those familial obligations mentioned in the article. I was only offered an assistantship one year, but funds were very tight in that department. I would still like to finish but not sure to what end. My wife, however, started her PhD in Hospitality & Tourism when she was 44 with full funding. In fact, her undergraduate department head reached out to her and asked her if she was interested in doing a PhD. They expedited her into the program in about 3 weeks after they contacted her. She finished last year at age 49 and started her assistant professor position the day she defended. Great job, income and benefits, and almost done with first year of teaching, she loves it.

Hey Andreas: I just thought of this funny story. I was visiting our local art museum one day not so long ago. While sitting in the A.M. café I recognized a retired professor who was having coffee. Thirty plus years ago he advised me not to go into a PhD program because so many students would be younger than me. I might feel strange sitting there in class with students in their 20s. After all this time, he did not recognize me. But when I told him I was a PhD candidate, he remarked that when one is old is an excellent time to get the PhD — one has time to devote to study. Its odd how people can change their minds.

I plan to do a PhD when I am old. It’s the perfect thing to keep the mind active and to get out of the house from time to time.

In Europe, you don’t have to pay tuition fees for most PhD programs, so it’s not a big deal to finance it either.

What an ageist load of shite. Stop writing off people who are past the age of 30. That in itself shows the advantages of more mentally mature people going into education. ‘Smarting’ because someone was two weeks younger than you? Are you for real? How snide and strange. Not everyone can get everything done in one decade. Life goes on and circumstances alter, and often people actually see sense the older they get as opposed to the narcissistic and egostical grip of youth where we want to be everything all at once – the most accomplished, the most attractive etc. Eugh. We get older and realise that we take things as they come, we calm down and get our heads out of our arses and change perspective. I would think that holds a lot for PhD work and perhaps some people are too young and ignorant when they’re taking on degrees/PhDs because they don’t know who they are or whether they’re doing it for the right reasons. Just a nation of over-achieveing plastic people with no real merit, and nothing which shows for true grit or character building. Those people who succeed really early are also the most incredibly dull. Little tired of the shame brought on by our year of birth. Life is just a journey, I wish people would stop having audacity to act like they know when the expiry date beginson that journey…Speak for yourselves, and just evolve for christ’s sake. Out of all the ridiculous ‘isms’ out there in liberal looney land, why is this one ‘ism’ still used so loosely? For everyone – it’s better that you set your own standards and not ask these types of questions anyway. There will be some conceited moron who will have the brass stones to tell you whether you’re ‘past it’ even though they know sweet f*ck all about you on your own merit. In fact, no-one will ever know you like you know yourself. Get on with it if you have an opportunity, you’ll feel good and they don’t have a clue about what you want to do with it – you may not even want to continue in te academic world (it is a very toxic environment anyway), but the PhD will certainly be a colourful addition to your CV and open more doors for the career that you really have your eye on (where people are sane, and more human). I’ve seen people in their fifties, sixties doing PhDs. Why should they give a sh*t what any of you think? For your information, I’ve witnessed people in their mid-thirties, late forties and early fifties get accepted onto funded life sciences programmes so quit with the ‘ideal age’ garbage. Follow your own nose and be limited by nothing, seeking answers from those who already think they have the answer to a question which is tantamount to ‘how long is a piece of string’ will not help you. Life really isn’t that serious if you think about it (a PhD is just a long thesis that only a couple of people will read in your lifetime), but if you take it too seriously you’ll be trapped by everything. Don’t fall for it….

To be sure to some extent but when it normally won’t want me I’ll make possibilities personally. Basically could possibly get with the PhD I’m able to make my very own way. I have not permitted anybody to find out my revenue or my possibilities. I’m able to only control myself not others.

In an ideal world education should be available to all. But universities are all about reputation and money. Its not about the pursuit of knowledge. Its “what can you do for me now.” How can a student getting a degree from our school, dept. etc. enhance the reputation of the school, bring in grant money, and make us all look good.

Education is a fundamental right and everyone must get an opportunity to pursue a course including PhD and age must not be a hindrance in this age of rapid human development. Universities must abolish age restrictions and open door for the benefit of the learners. They also must provide full financial assistance for the adult students.

SS I would say generally that you are correct. PhD programs do not exist for personal fulfillment. But that does not mean one’s goal should only be dictated by the potential for academic contribution. At a certain point, personal goals and enlightenment really count and if the university lets you in and you want to work that hard for the PhD, then do it. I still write and give papers for presentation and publication even though I know I am too old to ever be considered for a tenure job.

All excellent points. But I would also add that it depends upon what you have done in your field up until now. In Education, it is not uncommon to begin doctoral studies after you have been in the field teaching K-12. This is critically valuable experience to conducting further research and making sense of existing research, and it brings quite a bit of credibility. This is probably true of many fields: if you have been compiling a competitive record in your 35-40 years of work, you may be worth the investment; a PhD is not the beginning of your career. However, if you haven’t really been building your competitive record in your field by the time you are 40, then I would say you are not a good candidate, if what you’re hoping to do after you graduate is be a research professor. Moreover, if you don’t have an impressive track record at that age, it would beg the question – how ambitious are you, really? Ambitious enough to finish, attract funding, and continue to do high quality research after graduation? PhD programs are not there for your own personal fulfillment and enlightenment. That’s undergrad. PhD programs are there to create the next generation of scholars pushing the field forward.

Thank you for the informed insight. I hear faculty asking undergraduate students what students want from their class. My first question to graduate students is “What will you contribute to this class?”

That’s great Bruce. Your story is even more encouraging to me. Thanks for sharing.

I am liking this post and the comments herein. I would lie if I never mentioned that I am feeling motivated and well on course towards getting my PhD.

I am still sourcing for PhD funding and doing all that is within my means and trusting in God to have my PhD before or when I am 35.

I am already into entrepreneurship and consulting and I believe having a Phd will not only limit me into academia but open a wide berth for me to do embark on other things as well.

Good on you Notepad! I sourced everything myself including my own research project. I worked with the U.S. Forest service on a project they wanted and was not bound or tied to university department for the funding. I also peer reviewed a few federal grants that I got paid for. The other trick for me was to write or co-write a few community grants. I found that when an academic department does not hold the purse strings, I had much more latitude. I know you can do it Notepad!

Bruce: One more thing — that last comment about face-to-face communication skills. I just finished giving finals to my freshmen classes. Part of it was an oral presentation. Few students feel comfortable facing a group, even a group of their own peers. Chalk it up to the wired-in generation and texting.

To be blunt from my own experience at a land grant university, I began a masters degree program at the age of 51 with a masters of public administration already in hand. After the second class, the graduate dean convinced me to pursue a doctoral program (sociology had none), and at the age of 52 I began a PhD study in natural resource management (my own choice). It took nearly 6 years to complete a fairly intense qualitative study and the prelims were brutal, but done. I am now beyond retirement age at the same university in academic affairs filling my ideal niche (for me) – academic advising and affiliate graduate faculty. I had no ambition of tenure on faculty – who wants to start all over at the bottom of the proverbial Marxist totem pole? Here is what I learned in my own lived experience and from working with many other older than average graduate students: (1) it is not the job of faculty to hand-hold; (2) it is not the responsibility of faculty to get graduating students a job; (3) it is the graduate student’s responsibility to network and understand the labor market (to include colleges and universities); (4) when graduate students behave as peers, faculty will treat them as peers; and finally (5) the majority of employers I speak with tell me that graduate students have great technical skills but often lack face-to-face communication skills – and that will kill job prospects.

Bruce: You said it better than I did. Networking, understanding the labor market, and how one’s skills fit into that market are essential ingredients for anyone at any age finding a job. I never expected my professors to get me a job, rather I would put them in the “May I use your name as a reference” category. Hand-holding is a relative matter. The ageism and sexism (especially the latter) are blatant in my department. There are too many examples I and others have noted over the years. One senior librarian referred to the department as “That good ol’ boys’ campus club”. I would say that for an older student, your experience and your NETWORK will do you more good than a professor’s recommendation.

Liz, I think we all appreciate your insight, and thank you for sharing them. I did at one point experience ageism from a much younger faculty member than I. I chose not to take it personally but to move on professionally. Not every university department is the same – some healthy and some toxic.

Within my own department, we build group and individual oral presentations into the curricula, especially in upper-level classes. Now many of our students are getting hired before they graduate based on university and department reputation, internships, and career related part time work.

I agree with you, and if I had it all to do again, I’m not sure I would go for the PhD — at least not at the University I attended. But, my options were limited at the time and I did not think that it would take me as long as it did. After two MAs I figured I could do it in 3 or 4 years. I should have taken the cue from several younger women who quit the program and did not look back. I hate not finishing what I have started. But, I have the degree now for what its worth and I have a job. I have spent my life networking — that is what landed me a job at my advanced age, along with experience and teaching credentials in three different areas of humanities. My professors were little help in getting any job. They were too focused on the junior PhD candidates finding plum research positions. I still say, if you want something go for it even if the path to the goal is uneven and unorthodox.

Dear Toothbrush: Every one in a while I visit this website. True — I received my PhD after working on it part and full time for 15 years. I had a good job and received another OK job teaching at a Community College. I have held full-time teaching positions in a couple of colleges. But, unfortunately the reality is that Universities are interested in their own reputations as are professors in their respective departments. Age is not the only factor, but how much investment will the department — professors, etc. be willing to assume in a student if there is an assumption that you as a student do not have enough years left in your life to make a mark in your field. It is not about you as a student, but about the institution, the department and your advisor. What payback are they going to get from you? Granted, it is unfair. I will say this since I now have a job and it will probably be the last job I have, but my university is a well-known Catholic institution with an ingrained and systemic bias toward non-traditional students at least in some fields (Not all). Again, this seems to be the traditional attitude in many universities which pride themselves on research more than teaching. Of course, you can learn and of course a degree should depend on whether one can read, write, and think, regardless of age, but that is not the current reality. Case in point and I forget if I already stated this. A young female PhD student was complaining that her PhD advisor did not even know what her dissertation was about. This student is under 30. But, I had problems with my advisor even getting through my entire dissertation once written and I am over 60. I had blamed my problems on age, but sometimes the issues are more complicated. Once, more ( I forget again if I had said this) but a fellow student once said to me that if I was not young (under 30) Irish Catholic and male, I would have a hard time making it through the program. Well, I proved him wrong and He did not make it through, but this goes to show that there is more to getting through than ability and desire. The politics and the profile as to what constitutes the institutional portrayal of the ideal student is very important. But, you can do it if you want the degree bad enough.

I agree to a certain extent but if they don’t want me I will make opportunities for myself. If I can get through the PhD I can make my own way. I have never allowed anyone to determine my income or my opportunities. I can only control myself not others.

One is never too old to learn. The problem is availability, location, or those who decide whether or not you should enter “their” program. The question may be, are they willing to invest their time in you considering your age? Age is a factor like it or not, and importantly you must find an area a professor with your topic interest .

As a divorced single parent I re-entered the academic arena later in life to earn a Masters degree. Learning was not a problem, my brain functioned as well as the younger students. One notably difference was the experience, which showed up in their reasoning.

After acceptance to the PhD conference, gaining insight into strategies for successful entry, I tried “on and off” for years to gain entry into PhD Business in my state with no success. Either I could not find 3 professors alive or space availability. The PhD was not offered part time and relocation was not a choice, making it impossible to attain. Children were my priority and therefore work was necessary. Today it is offered part time but I am no longer 35, although my brain functions well; evident in the fact that I changed careers and successfully completed another master. Today, it is more difficult to meet some of the admissions criteria which has nothing to do with your ability to manage but whether or not you can find professors to support your application. Age, a factor makes it difficult to find more than one professor alive to provide references.

Why can’t a person read/pursue a degree if they want? Why should there be age discrimination? If a person wants to study for a PhD the year before they die, then why not? Learning is lifelong and should not be limited to the ‘young’.

Hi Terrance. I applied to undertake it through work and was turned down for funding (I can’t complain, they had already funded my Masters through a ‘refund of fees scheme’). Subsequently I researched scholarships and after identifying a suitable supervisor I approached them to see if it was feasible. They liked my research proposal and were kind enough to assist me through the scholarship application process. As I am very busy in work, I attended the School of Law in the University of Limerick in Ireland, but only when essential (supervision sessions etc). It was hard to manage my time, but I think by only attending the University when I had to it allowed me to concentrate on writing the thesis. For me the process is all about independent work, that is, the supervisors are there to guide you but it’s up to you to put your bum on a chair and start writing. I believe that the main requirement for successful completion is work ethic, good supervisors and old fashioned graft. It’s gruelling, but if you pick a research question you know is ‘answerable’ I believe most people who are good writers can achieve it. In saying all of that, as I work in a prison and my research topic was on prison officers, it was a labour of love and. Found the process enjoyable and fascinating. I hope that info is useful to you and I wish you well in your endeavours.

I don’t know where to start with this. Firstly, it shouldn’t be age related. I’m 49 and undertook my PhD whilst working in a very busy managerial job. Secondly, to say it takes circa 6 years is nonsense. Granted, it will if you get distracted by squirrels. If you have average focus it should take no longer than 3-4 years. Seriously, we dress it up to be unachievable, perhaps to impress those who haven’t had the same opportunity? I’m not sure. Either way, it took me less than 3 years, part time, and I enjoyed every little bit of it.

Hello Richard, did you complete your PhD online or on a campus and what discipline did you receive your PhD in. Also, were you able to find any free money?

Hello! I deferred my admission into Brown, so that I could work in my Hawaii job. Thanks for all the advice.

Now, University of Hawaii has a very generous tuition waiver option if you work there. I can easily get a well-paid job there (Hawaii is small, and I have developed a good rapport here). I can do the PhD part-time on the side (can take 6 credits per semester) and work full time with a great salary.

Should I do this, or go full-time at Brown? I know University of Hawaii is not as prestigious, and it is a PhD in Sociology. So wondering how job prospects will change.

Another big aspect is that my Significant Other would much prefer to stay in Hawaii, than go to Providence. We are warm-weather folk :)

heeeeeeelp..

PhD # 1 — begun 1991 (age 47) finished in 1997 (age 53). No cost because I worked as a teacher from the adjunct faculty pool.

PhD # 2 — begun 2003 (age 59) finished in 2014 (age 70). Low cost because I worked a deal and (hopefully) will eventually teach online for them.

And now I would like to get into another PhD program. So much I want to learn!!!

As the first in my family to graduate college, let alone go on for advanced degrees, I wandered through my 20s without much guidance (albeit managing to earn a B.A. and an M.A. [the latter from NYU], in five and six years each, respectively). 30 loomed as a deadline (Time to become a grownup, in other words). I entered my PhD program–in English–at 30, found I loved teaching, and finished in six years. At the time, CHE was calling seven years the average for finishing the doctorate, across all fields. I was hired to a tenure-track job at 37–and still have it 25 years later.

Age is a peculiar thing. In those years I when I was writing my diss.–from 33 to 36–I felt ancient, older than everybody. I was aware that my diss. committee members each had his/her PhD at 26 or so, and were tenured or even full profs when they were about my age. When I started my first job, however, it all changed, and I felt 22 again. I’m now 62, have no plans to retire, and am at a point with my research and in my department where I feel like I’m starting a new stage. Academia can age you if you don’t keep up and stay fresh, or make you feel ageless if you do. It’s a wonderful profession that way. Being surrounded always by young people is a similar phenomenon. It can make you young if you keep learning and changing, or, I suppose, make you feel like a fossil who would rather rot if you just resist change. I teach (some) online courses; most in my age cohort shudder at the prospect. As a Film Studies professor, I could mourn “the death of cinema.” But what my students want me to teach them is Renoir and Hitchcock and the Hollywood Studio Era. It’s not as if we’re construction workers who can’t do the heavy lifting and the climbing at a certain point. I survived cancer at 46; in many professions I would have been applying for disability then. I also had gotten a job without great pay (to be sure) but with more than adequate health insurance–something to which I barely gave a thought when I was hired. This will sound cliched, but if you look ahead instead of back, and find new things to do, age doesn’t matter a whole lot.

I never let my true age be known and some people still try to guess how old I am. None of their business and if anyone reads this blog, they’ll find out. If someone wants to know, fine – – look up my school records. I know of people in their 80s who go back to school for personal and professional reasons. Went for my 2nd master about 20 years ago and there was a man who was in his seventies who just finished a BA in history and was starting his MA. He eventually went on for the PhD. But, I was careful for years about my age (still am a little bit) since there really is ageism out there, ingrained in the system.

Rebecca Butterworth…. I love your comment. You are exactly what I described in my post before even looking at yours. I knew a woman in my undergraduate class who was 40. She was getting her second bachelors. Everyone thought she was in her late 20’s……She never offered the information and why should she to people who really did not need to know…

Everyone’s situation is different.Someone in their mid 40’s can go to even get a masters abroad with no problem in my opinion. If the person has no children, not married/or married with a flexible spouse. If the person looks young it may help with ageism among classmates. If the person has 2 bachelors one being very recent will help I feel with the stigma of the school administrative committee thinking you are out of touch with your industry. I like what Richard says “I have no desire to retire until I mentally of physically can no longer function.”

A beautiful vibrant woman/man who is in shape, has a youthful attitude, and does things to keep mentally sharp CAN STUDY ABROAD PAST 40. I feel that you can keep a level of respect and dignity for yourself by not trying to socially hang out with the students as you are not in the same age group…. They can be immature BUT I would take the amazing experience of study abroad/plus travel included……. and run with it. Many of the abroad degrees are shorter as well so you can get in and get out quickly. I see many older women staying in Hostels while travelling in London and it’s OK.

Age, drive , and your ambition have to do with you and the person you are inside. The nonsense about over 30’s everything is old and terribly outdated.

I earned a BA in social psychology in 1986 and a Masters in Public Administration with a concentration in administrative and organizational behavior in 1988. I used the education and knowledge in the public sector and adjunct teaching, Much later, I discovered how I can merge my environmental interests with education and experience, and tackled a PhD program of study in natural resources management, with a focus on the human aspects. Because my research was qualitative and seasonal, it took eight years to complete (while I worked full time) in 2011 – at age 61. I saw the challenge as the successful climbing of a personal mountain. I am now at a major land grant university where I primarily advise and teach both graduate and undergraduate courses such as environmental sociology, environmental policy, and environmental health. I won’t even discuss tenure at my age and publish at my leisure. That did not happen in a vacuum but through departmental networking. Now that I am full retirement age according to Social Security, I have no desire to retire until I mentally of physically can no longer function.

There is hope out there for everyone in their 60’s. I am just glad I have a decent teaching position. I think that constant networking and keeping up with your field is the key.

I have seen many people in their 50’s doing a PhD.

In my country (central Europe) you actually get paid by the university as a PhD student, plus college is free, and since most people are able to work full time in their respective fields and do the PhD at the same time, they actually financialy benefit from their studies and don’t lose years working in their field. Of course you have to work hard, you have to sacrifice some evenings, weekends and vacation time to write papers, do research, study or attend conferences or seminars, but it’s feasible and a lot of people in their 30’s, 40’s and 50’s make it happen.

I am starting an MA this Fall at age 49 and then will eventually complete my PhD in IR when I will be 54 or 55. At first i was concerned about my age, but upon reading many of the contributing posts I feel that I have made the correct decision in returning to school and changing careers. I can’t thank everyone enough for their thoughtful comments regarding this matter.

I am starting an MA program in accounting next week and then plan to obtain my PhD. I would like to hear some comments concerning on campus or online for PhD programs. Also, would welcome comments concerning sources of free money for MA and PhD programs.

I will come back here to read all the postings, but for now, I need to say that I found this article very inspiring.

Not sure if everyone has watched a video on TED about “Hiring a scrapper”, well, I do feel like I am one. I’m turning 45 this year, most of my work experience is in the Customer Service field, but I’ve been all over; I ended up finishing a B.Com. in International Business in 2013, recently got hired in part time base by a college to teach Customer Service & Sales and Communication Skills that made me conclude that I have finally found my true professional calling: Teaching.

I do wanna go for my Masters in Sociology, and am considering a Ph.D. in the same area, but have to admit, am a bit undecided about the latter. I speak Portuguese, English, and Spanish fluently, am not sure whether this would help me in any way but am certain that if I wanna teach degree programs at the college, I’d have to have a Ph.D.

The truth is I am a bit concerned because I have not accumulated any wealth throughout my life nor I have any retirement plan other than the public one. I’d have to get into student debt to pay for all my education, not to mention I do have anxiety as a condition.

I’d appreciate it very much any response to my thoughts.

Institution, not instruction…auto fill! Too bad I can’t edit it. That post will plague me until I die.

I just completed at age 66. One is never too old and must simply have realistic expectations of what can be accomplished. I already work at an instruction of higher education so I’m not job hunting. I do have much more credibility in my field now and can better compete in the grant and contract world. I’m satisfied.

Good for you. Like I said in a previous comment — I received my PhD at age 65. The prejudice in my department in terms of both ageism and sexism is astounding. I have worked in higher education and in high school for many years. I totally agree with your statement that one must have realistic expectations. Job Hunting is difficult and I have a job — don’t need to find one. But, one’s credibility is greatly affected when you can put PhD behind your name. That in itself is an unfortunate reality for I know many people in my field who are knowledgeable, but have not earned the doctorate.

Hello Everyone! I’m Rabina and I’m 33 years. I completed my Masters in Sociology this January 2016. I want to study further. Will you please tell me where and how should I apply for PhD? Hope I can go straight for PhD after Masters. Or, do I need to do MPhill? (wanna go direct). I’m not financially strong and I don’t have any working experience too. I want to study Psychology (which one will be the best; sociology or psychology?). I have no idea whether it’s possible or not and if yes, how. Studying further i.e going for PhD is my dream. I have obtained very less marks except in the dissertation. Do I have any chances? As I went through all your comments, I found that everyone have lots of experiences (long term) and seem to be highly educated with top marks.

Please help me! Thank you!

Actually, if I don’t get all this crap done by August 15th – and that’s probably how much longer the PASSPORT alone will take as the Irish Embassy has a 12-week processing time these days – I could always either enroll at certain choices in Belgium ANYWAY (as an “auditor) and just take more pre-doctoral Calculus and Physics classes for an entire YEAR and start this mess all over again for NEXT fall — on some of Switzerland’s universities’ application forms the only problem was going to be that I was nowhere near having MOST of what they require in the ONE MONTH application opening period that they have. (Switzerland is more competitive than a lot of other European countries because it’s so popular, that’s why I focused on Belgium) … I mean, high school diploma and transcripts that I have to PAY to get all over again, and I’m currently 3,000 miles from where I went to high school and have no desire to drive that far just to yell at the transcript office for taking so far 3 months to even look at my request (!!) – having to PAY to take a French language level certification test or something and they’re only given in NEW YORK, etc. Then the CV and the “verification letters” for all the time since 1989/high school graduation….Belgium is cheap to live in, and initially “sounded too easy” but that crap is just ridiculous. The Scandinavian countries’ universities only require you to submit transcripts of your LAST degree earned, not all the way back to HIGH SCHOOL. All this administrative rubbish, I’m almost forgetting my subject matter!!

Thanks for all the encouraging words. At 50, I’m starting my Masters in Accounting next month and plan to go straight into a Phd program afterwards. I was a little concerned about the age thing with the Phd but not anymore. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I just got hooded from the Dept. of History and I am 65. Another 65-year- old also walked in May — a PhD in public policy. I have always worked in my field — teaching. With a PhD in Early Modern European History, I hold no illusions. I have been a music teacher and Latin teacher for years and I do translations for pay. But, I also hold a couple of state teaching certificates and I have a background in music education (B.S. and a first MA). Strictly a research tenure track job in the humanities is tough even for the very young PhD (few and far between and they don’t pay well, at least in the beginning). If you can’t move or have family obligations it is almost impossible to find an academic job in the humanities. But in a math or science field, a tech field that is needed and/or if you already have a job and the school and program can accommodate you, it may be easier. But, anything can be done if you are determined enough to forge ahead. Accountants are needed at any age. And, here is another point. Some folks prefer to deal professionally with people close to their own age, so there is a special place for the recent but older graduate. Finally, there is no price you can put on the experience that only life can teach you. It is a selling point. GOOD LUCK!

You’re never too old! I did a science PhD at the usual early-mid 20’s age and in my mid-40’s I started a part time mathematics degree for interest and because it helped my research (in industry) and I have learned so much and applied it to my job and my consulting. Now I’m 50 and I’m going to do a masters or a PhD in statistics. Finances are important and can be an obstacle but if you can find the means and you have the drive, do it and enjoy it.

At age 54, and with 30 years of experience working in the energy and environmental consulting fields, I returned for a Masters in Public Policy at George Mason Univ in Northern Virginia near WDC. It was time to “sharpen the saw”, learn some new approaches, stimulate some different ways of thinking by reading a wider span of authors, and some of the best thinkers. GMU caters to working professionals and I enjoy a student body that isn’t all students — most are working and doing interesting things. I finished the Masters in 2015 and rolled into the PhD in Public Policy program at GMU after being awarded Scholar of the year in 2013. Some important notes: 1) I did not go back to graduate school to work my way into an academic career; I returned to gain perspective, interact with bright people again, and learn more about how Millennials see the world, plus more international students; 2) Because I had already worked in the agency (Dept. of Energy) most sought after leaving, I brought tremendously useful insight to class discussions — I had practiced policy, now I needed deeper theory. I brought more experience than several professors, but lacked their understanding of theory and methodologies. 3) I structured my work so that most papers and analysis in graduate school fed my consulting work; I recognize not as many PhDs can do this, but I could in Public Policy. My academic work paid for itself through consulting work and new engagements with clients, some of it by publishing some of my work. ADP, age 59 — hope to finish my PhD by 2020 in National Nuclear Energy Strategies and Sovereignty

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Came back here after someone checked me out from my post way back when and is great fun to see where everyone is at. Voice of Wisdom, sadly, is a troll. Love Kiffy’s comment RE: prophet of doom. ROFL

Again, I got my PhD and it ends up being my fifth degree. I know, I’m whack. Not going for another though I know dual PhDs are all the rage. But I’m committed to lifelong learning and a lot of doors have opened since getting the doctorate. Feel free to check out my other comment on this board here: https://chrisblattman.com/2013/06/12/when-are-you-too-old-for-a-phd/#comment-179580 .

I admit, I had a full life before the PhD so getting one was just icing. Once you get it, aim high, real high (someone has to get those jobs and you never know who might find you attractive for whatever reason). “The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.” Some Proverbs 16:33 for the ‘Voice of Wisdom.’

Very inspiring to see so many people go for their dreams in the face of debilitating illness and chronic distress when I know I could not do so. There’s more strength in this thread than we realize!

Thanks for continuing the conversation, Dr. Blattman. Peace, out.

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Pamela: I never thought of combining everything I did into a consulting position. I guess I always thought that I would have to give a name of a boss, or company. I could just say that I worked for myself, which in many instances I did. Good idea — the consultant. Thanks.

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@Pamela Kennedy You could combine all of your temporary, sporadic jobs into one long career as a consultant. I have friends who have done this kind of project-to-project work in international development and on their resumes it just says “20 years experience as a consultant in blah blah blah” It also would look more like you chose the flexibility of the freelancing life. Good luck!

I have found out, at least at my institution, that not every minute of your working life needs to be cited. I combined jobs, abbreviated what I did, and only included what was appropriate or what would make me look good. I did not include everything I ever did. Not too long ago (this year) I took a survey for grad. students and those who had recently graduated. It seems that my department is being audited for efficiency. The survey wanted to know how many papers I had given, published, books published, conferences attended and organized, grants received, etc. Well, I know there are some who have done more — but I have some papers to my name — no books yet. But, I capitalized on my work experience, adjunct experience, full-time employment especially where I could say that I directed something or headed up a committee. I can say that in my life I had very little down time. I don’t know how Great Britain organizes their collegiate processes. But, I have heard that it is considerably different than in the US. I have two friends who received their PhDs from Cambridge, and to hear them talk, the expectations are quite different than in the Midwest, US. They both feel that getting the PhD in England is much more difficult than what is encountered in the US. I still say that much depends on your institution, your department, your advisor, and what you expect of yourself. I am not above a few white lies about what I’ve done or massaging the truth if necessary. Lets just say, I don’t put everything down in applications or surveys.

@Vanessa: Regarding your friend who took his PhD in Wales at the age of 70 – how the hell did he get past the part where they require you to account for every thing you’ve done and everywhere you’ve been since HIGH SCHOOL – presumably the age of 18??

Or maybe your friend was not like me, getting kicked in the head around the country (US, Canada, and the UK) on temporary sporadic jobs that never last more than a few weeks or months, over and over again, for the amount of years between the ages of 18 and 70. Hell, if you can keep one job in the same place for 10 years at a time then that CV thing is easier to do, now isn’t it.

I’m finding that even getting through the application process in my mid-40’s after getting my Master’s and law degrees in my late 20’s, is so awful that I’m wondering if I’m ever going to do anything else with my life EVER. And thinking that I’ve overstayed my welcome ON THIS PLANET. Yes, I’ve found PhD programs in Mathematical Computational Physics in countries in Europe that don’t require that you get recommendations from your undergrad professors, who, after all, by now are probably DEAD. Or wouldn’t remember you from Adam because it’s been over 20 years since they last saw you. That one alone was the reason I looked to Europe in the first place. Then I get to the actual applications and they’re starting to do this thing: they make me put my date of high school graduation down and then make me recount where I’ve been and what I’ve been doing since that time. You know. NINETEEN EIGHTY-NINE. After looking up every curse word I could think of in the French dictionary, I slog through ONE of those and then I get a letter from admissions asking for my high school transcripts/diploma and everything since then, also a CV accounting for all that time. Yeah, I’m too old to do ANYTHING. And I was only even looking to get a PhD because I’ve found that I can’t get any job doing anything at all without one, also because of my age (which people “guess at” on my applications due to when I graduated high school and college.) Also, the times being what they have been for the past decade and a half, my “career” has been gradually going into the TOILET over the years. I’ve got to find a COUNTRY in which a brown-skinned minority woman can get a job with “just” a Masters earned 20 years ago, without having to account for all the years since high school on a CV!!! Either that or lay down and DIE in my 24-year old PAID-FOR car.

I mean, the university applications are requiring a “letter of motivation” my MOTIVATION is that I can’t find a damn JOB anymore!! (Combination age and skin colour.)

So sorry — Seniors do waiver: The name is Arthur Schopenhauer.(d. circa 1860) I knew after I wrote “Jacob” that it was the wrong first name. There is a Jacob in literature but not nearly as well known. Oh well, Schopenhauer was a devotee of Plato. Schopenhauer, I believe, also felt that angry or dissatisfied people represented unfilled will.

Dear Voice of Wisdom: Who are you? No, wait — don’t tell me, I may actually know you. I have been in academia and in teaching for years. I will not tell you how many credentials and positions I have held sans the PhD that I will soon get. And, I am VERY WELL over 40. How do you like that for a near Ciceronian praeteritio? I have never had a problem finding and/or keeping a job in academia, provided that one includes the teaching field as part of academia. I choose to define the term “academia” rather broadly. Achieving and maintaining employment with a PhD depends on what field of endeavor one has pursued; and no, not all of us grayed-haired types look or act grayed-haired, nor do we seek to stave off dementia. One should not count a life in terms of decades of employment. One also should patently ignore what I was once told by a professor prior to not being accepted into a program. He said, “We question whether you have a sufficient number of years left in your career field to warrant a significant contribution to research.” I was taken aback, cried a lot, and then mustered up some determination to tell that person what I thought. By the way, I was 35 years old when that happened and I will always remember the incredibly elitist ego that accompanied that prediction. Like the philosopher Jacob Schopenhaur once said, and I paraphrase since this senior’s memory may waver — it is better to have fewer books and better books in one’s library than to have many books. Unfortunately, there are more than many academics who are forced to publish to keep their jobs — a sad state of affairs since not all books are worthy of publishing much less reading and moving from shelf to shelf. I champion any and all who wish to pursue higher education for whatever reason. There is no just reason to defend one’s position to anyone. Keep trying until you get it!

VW I see two things going on here.

1. You are distressed that there are people who do not want to follow what you deem to be age-appropriate behavior and you feel it is your responsibility to urge them to conform to perceived norms and expectations.

2. You are assuming that everyone who gets a Phd is seeking an academic career. Have a look at this Stanford website which shows post-Phd employment for their graduates.

http://web.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/irds/phdjobs

While the data is not perfect it shows that only 45% of their Phd graduates are working in academia with the rest in government, industry, non-profit or other.

I did not pursue an academic career earlier because I wanted to make money. In my field, government and industry pay several times what academia does. I have always known that research informs practice and am now in a position to pursue research. The Phd is simply the best way to develop those skills.

A parting shot: clearly you don’t travel much because you will see plenty of sweaty, gray-haired types (usually men) discoing away with the young in nightclubs all over the world from Cancun to Phuket.

How is pursuing a doctorate an “ego-trip?” It is true getting educated early helps to rise up the ladder, but it sounds like you think it actually hurts a person. I was speaking to my friend yesterday who just finished his PhD at 54. He is financially secure and one of the smartest people I know. There is not doubt he could have had a PhD at 30.

Now, if you want to say he SHOULD have pursued his PhD by 30, I may be inclined to agree with you. Are you bitter about something? If you are incredibly successful as a young PhD I do not begrudge you for it, good on you.

You said that @35 you (and your ilk-) were juggling parenting and busy careers. Precisely! Except, why weren’t you busy juggling academic career at that time like it is a widely expected, gasp, norm? Get it? Your “tremendous obligations that come with early adulthood” are the norm everywhere including academia, so get off of your pedestal. You aren’t that special. Academia is not a “last train” that exists just so those timewasters, who originally lacked maturity and/or foresight and/or strategic skills to get into it in the first place, could hop on it at their leisure and convenience.

Also, my advice is for those who are serious about getting into academic careers, and not for those who are pursuing PhD for the sake of it (or for cute reasons like staving off potential dementia and what have you).

If you are not PhD-in-hand and on the academic market by 40 – forget it. Like everything else in life, there’s time and place for everything. And academia for newbies in their 50s or 60s is not that place.You don’t see (m)any double-chinned, gray, wrinkled 50+ people in trendy night clubs hobnobbing (and looking to score) with young people in their 20s and 30s; so what makes you think that academia is different?

People, save your dignity, and look for your ego kicks someplace else.

Dear Voice of Wisdom, I agree with you about deferring admission for one year, a vesting allowance is always worth it and sometimes allows the retiree to opt-in to the employer health care plan – far more valuable than the allowance for sure.

I disagree with just about everything else you said. I do not know who you are describing but many who return for a Phd later in life,myself included, are financially secure with solid careers who have reached a place in their intellectual development where pursuing research is the natural next step. There are many part-time Phd programs in the UK that accommodate just this type of learner.

We either have no intention of working in the low-paid, low-benefit world of academia or we work in applied fields that are always short of Phd trained teaching faculty like computer science or nursing.

I also disagree with your assumption that satisfaction at age 55 is not as sweet as when one is 35. I would argue that it is the opposite. At 35,I and many like me were juggling parenting and busy careers – we had no time for satisfaction – we just wanted to get a good night’s sleep. Now with kids out of the house and finances in place, we can afford to pursue a life of the mind without the tremendous obligations that come with early adulthood.

A lifelong career is no longer the norm. There no rules that must be followed.

Last, if you are going to insult and ridicule please be brave and sign with your own name. I do.

Voice of Wisdom: you sound more like a prophet of doom than a wisely balanced guardian. There are various motives people go for PhD at a later stage than just capitilizing on it as single source of hope and hapiness in life – even for so, it always ones choice. Also, illness can be of varied sources and can strike at anytime of ones life. Finally, the academia is one of the rare areas that people retire formally but continue produzing and being useful to sociedade even from a will chair. So, I don’t I consider your negatively loaded emphasis on age and ailments sufficient factor for dissuading anyone from choosing at any time convenient to do PhD.

DEFER, DEFER, DEFER!!!

Life is a strategic game of chess.

Get that pension if you can (even if “only” $500) because in the great scheme of things one year doesn’t make any difference in academia.

As long as you finish your PhD by 40 (even better if by 35-) you will still be academically OK, especially if coming from a place like Brown.

This goes for the rest of you:

It is not enough to just finish PhD; it’s not even about getting a job — those are given. The bigger issue is how much meaningful and productive time, while at reasonable physical robustness/health, will you have after your PhD? What will be your inner satisfaction. Will you be constantly miserable and self-destructive that you haven’t started that endeavor earlier in life? Because, make no mistake, satisfaction at 55 is just not the same like it is at 35.

For those who are interested in academic career, my strong advice is to not embark on this path unless you can complete your PhD and be employed (even if adjunct) by 40.

40 is absolutely last age for embarking on a full and meaningful three-decade career. The rest of you are just lost, insecure souls frightened with diminishing professional prospects, failing health, and increasing social irrelevancy, and so you are desperately invested in the idea that by running into academia you will find a safe haven that will magically erase all those difficult things from your life. It won’t.

So if you recognize yourself in these descriptions do not throw the rest of your life away pursuing something so fickle. There are many other more dignified/more worthy pursuits outthere.

Turn around and never look back.

Academia also plays by the same rules as the greater society — they may just be more cunning about it. They don’t give a shit about you. There’s no “life of the mind”. There’s business as usual: egoism, careerism, nepotism, ageism, classism, politics, gossip, backstabbing, prejudice, snobbery, fluff, etc. etc.

Turn around. And never look back.

Dear Ken & Joy,

Thank-you for the insightful comments! It definitely helps ease the twinge of pain I still feel about the rejection, but makes me hopeful, in case I have to apply again next year. Thank-you again for the sound advice and direction regarding your own PhD/MA experiences.

I’m 26, just got rejected from a PhD program, applied to another Master’s program as well, waiting for the results. Because I work full-time, and have consistently decided to apply last minute to these programs I feel my applications haven’t been as strong as they could have. I’m turning 27 this year, if I don’t get into any programs I’m already getting anxiety about applying again/potentially entering a grad program at 28…age is definitely a reality I didn’t consider a few years ago, until a PhD friend of mine recently told me not to wait to apply as the reaction to older grad students is a little non-accepting. Fingers crossed that the other application goes okay, I really don’t want to wait to start school again…

I completed my Master’s Degree at 46 after basically failing at it when I was 25. This is due to selecting the correct major as well as your maturity level I admit, I was reluctant to go back to school 20 years after my BA, but I am so happy that I did. I am not sure about the older grad students comment. I felt far ahead of the younger students because I had real life experiences. Also, they respected the fact that maybe I had learned a thing or two in 20 years. If you are doing it for a specific job or field, they may have prejudice, but individuals and schools do not seem to.

I agree with Ken. I started my accelerated PhD at 53, graduating at 56 (this year). I received a full fellowship and full salary and many very low interest or forgiven loans. My cohort of 6 ranged from ages 32 to 53! I don’t plan on retiring!

I finished my BSc. in physics 8 years ago and my MSc. in Space Eng. 3 years ago. I work as a flight dynamics engineer and soon i’ll get promoted, however, I miss my physics lectures, my physics background and I was thinking to apply for a part-time PhD in theoretical physics.

In 2 years I’ll be 40 and honestly, I’ll do my PhD just to have fun (yeah… fun) and because I love physics. I don’t think I’ll get any troubles to apply with my background and I don’t think as well I’ll have problems with my age… What if I finish my PhD at my 50’s? Still I have 30 years to give something to the community.

Does this work?

I am in my mid 30’s and I returned to get my PhD in physics. I have a youtube channel with some videos of my first year and a half in graduate school. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDPCo8Z7ULlUHywB7vPEJSg

This comment is for Carole. I hope you finish your PhD and I wish you all the luck in the world. It is a tough go, but if you want it bad enough you will do it. There are so many hoops to jump through, I can’t even remember all of them. But, you have my best wishes and as I said in my first comment — Go for it!

Liz, thank you so much for encouragement and the reminder that it is certainly going to take a lot of determination to finish. I will finish my course work next year and then on the the dissertation. I must admit that I am finding the process both challenging and requiring adaptation in study habits. I can almost remember when I had short term memory, unfortunately I no longer have it. This has been and continues to evolve my note taking and info filing strategies. I haven’t solved the issue yet but continue to engage the process. Reading for more than an hour at a time is impossible but that just means I get to take more breaks. I must be clear though, this is the most fun I have had in decades..I wouldn’t give it up for anything. I do suppose that a lot depends upon the program you are in and the passion you bring to the project. Thanks for your good wishes, my I offer mine in return for you in whatever passion you are following.

I have a young friend who gave up a good job — a high salary — to start her PhD. One year into it, she decided that she hated academia. Fortunately, she got her old job back. My advice to starting a PhD at any age (and I started mine very late in life) is to realistically balance living in the present with planning for the future. Where do you see yourself in five years — in 10 years? Do you think it is feasible and do you like what you see? What will you be sacrificing? If you are a woman, you may be sacrificing a lot. You must search carefully your own values.

Thanks for the feedback!

I should have mentioned that since I only worked for a few years in the government (5 years vesting period), my pension will be around $500/month (w/increase for inflation).

Is $500/month in today’s dollars worth me waiting a year and deferring my PhD program?

Brown is the program that I would want to go to, because of its focus on development studies/globalization. University of Hawaii does not compare.

If you heart is set on Brown, you are young enough to “go for it.” Just check out your options that you are confident you can get a good job like your current one when you finish your PhD.

Hello! I love this blog.

I am at a difficult decision.

I am 28 years old, and got accepted into the Brown Sociology PhD program with full funding, excellent advisors, etc.

I currently work for the government in Hawaii and if I wait one more year in my current job, I will be “vested” into the pension system and get a government pension when I retire.

I am so excited about the PhD that I do not want to defer. (Brown allows you to defer for a year). But I wonder if I should wait for financial reasons (plus, I earn close to a six figure salary in my current job which doesn’t hurt building my savings).

If I wait a year, I will start the program when I am about to turn 30.

Not sure if that is too old?!

You are only 28 years old. I will be 47 tomorrow and I just received my MA last April 2015. I understand that a PhD is important to you, but if you keep your current job and invest wisely you will be set for life before you are my age. You may not have full funding through a university, but you will have a fuller pension. Especially if you will be vested in a year earning six figures and not even 30 years old. Check out PhD programs in Hawaii. So, you do not go full-time, you will still have a PhD before you are 40 and you will not be hurting for money.

I was in a Ph.D. program that I start at the age of 40 and finished all my course work successfully. I was sidetracked by being misdiagnosed as being terminally ill. Now I am 58-year-old single parent with a chronically ill child. I have done some major things – I have been recognized by a CEO of a major fortune 500 organization. I miss the mental stimulation of the Ph.D. program and my Ph.D. colleagues. I still long for the Ph.D. but I think the door has closed.

Go for it! It will take a lot of time but the rewards are immense both intellectually and socially. I am 71, in my second year of a PhD program in transdisciplinarity, and I love it. You have my best wishes.

I find it surprising that 60-80 hour weeks are required to train an anthropologist. Even in medicine, we are questioning if the grueling hours produce better doctors or just more tired ones. I think in the clinical sciences this is accepted as part of the socialization process that readies you for the great responsibilities you must take on. I suppose your professors are trying to achieve the same thing without having reflected on the effect of overwork on student performance. Maybe your student cohort should share with them the findings from the medical literature about this.

I disagree that self-education is possible if research is your primary goal. The resources and networking that a university provides cannot be found elsewhere. As someone making a late life career switch from family medicine to environmental sciences, I naively thought I could show up and be embraced. Now I am studying for the GRE and taking graduate classes in ecology to prove I am worthy of a research doctorate.

I don’t expect to make a living from a Phd but I do hope to find an intellectually stimulating community of like-minded scholars. Does such a thing exist in academia or is it just brutal competition and one-upmanship? If one is not seeking a traditional academic career is age-discrimination less prominent?

A very interesting post that I could address from the other side of the coin. I’m 26 right now and I’m in the second year of a PhD program in Anthropology (in the US). For myself personally, I couldn’t envision taking all of this on in my later years, particularly if I had children. I think that if you’re going to go back, you have to consider how much of a time commitment is involved and what you are willing to invest. During my first year, I had to work 60 to 80 hour weeks and I had a hell of a time. I did this side by side with a woman who entered the program in her late forties with a child. She was an incredible student but just could not keep up with the huge amount of things that we had to do to stay afloat. She had a life outside of school, which seems to be a “cardinal sin” from the perspective of academia. To me, this is shameful.

Beyond this, I would also consider if you are able to take a large pay cut. My tuition is covered, but my stipend is only about 15K a year. I live in a rural area that offers affordable housing and I commute to campus. My lifestyle is not glamorous and I go without a lot of the time.

Perhaps this is just my perspective from the social sciences, but these were my honest reflections. I completely respect anyone over 35 who wants to go back, but I also know the challenges that await them, particularly the various degrees of discrimination that I have witnessed. At times, even I have been made to feel “older” at 26! Crazy, right?

I also believe that a PhD is not an end all be all in terms of education. You could still feasibly educate yourself at any age without formally enrolling into a academy. There are a lot of different ways to learn that don’t necessary fit neatly into this one, tiny little box.

Started mine in the social sciences at 27 and finished at 32 (1983). Through poor planning had done no networking and my field was not doing well in the job market anyway. Did get a government job for a year but was kicked out (too liberal in a very conservative state) and then had years of unemployment/minimum wage work. Finally got on a tenure track at a small university, but guess I’m a slower learner–thought schools wanted open discussion of topics outside the (conservative) students’ comfort zone (and the chair liked Nixon too). At this point I discovered that a bad work history, being in one’s late 30s, and having an obsolete Ph.D. (+2 masters’) in a dead field was not a ticket to success. After 7 awful years ended at a for-profit for 23 more. At least it was teaching and nobody gave a damn what I said. The place was finally put out of its misery after 1 lawsuit too many. Moral is to pick your field carefully, plan your career, expect the unexpected, and don’t diddle around. Yes tenure track academia is a dying option, but older Ph.D.s can certainly make it in some fields, and you’ll have the fun and sense of achievement of doing it. But know what you are getting in to. And try to get some practical experience too; if you want to teach know how before you get up in front of a class. If you expect to work with other people understand something about group dynamics and socialization–some folks get this intuitively but as a group I think doctorate holders find these areas more difficult. Give yourself every advantage possible.

I am in my mid 30’s and getting my PhD in physics. Feel free to follow my journey on my youtube channel in the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDPCo8Z7ULlUHywB7vPEJSg

I am over over 50 and just now finishing my PhD. And, I have a job teaching — a good job. it is never too late. I have a friend of mine who started a PhD over the age of 70. He is very bright and everyone loves him and he is not looked down upon. Another woman I know received her law degree at 84. She will not use it — but then again, as long as she wanted it and paid for it, who cares. If you love the process and love learning — go for it

Hi there, very interesting comments. One question: can someone share experiences of late started (>40 years old) phd in scientific disciplines like applied physics or math?

If someone has a dream to attain the highest level of education then age should not matter. The legacy left behind is what matters. If someone is healthy and intelligent with the passion to work towards a PhD then no one should stand in their way! My motto is that it’s never too late to educate!

Hi all, I’m 49 years and am considering a Phd in Accounting. Having spent over 20 years in public accounting and industry, and having a law degree as well, I realize that I have a passion for teaching and research. I was doubting myself whether I should pursue the Phd, but having read your posts, I’m going for it! Thanks for the encouragement!

It is true that the earlier you start, the better! But for many of us, the PhD wasn’t on our radar in our 20s. I know that after I finished my Master’s degree in my mid-20s, I wanted to make my mark in the professional world, which I like to think I did. At 40, with the satisfaction of senior level work experience and some earnings under my belt, I returned to academia for the PhD. I’ve loved it. Fortunately, I don’t feel isolated in my program at all. We have folks in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s, though the majority are probably late 20s or early 30s. There is one individual who is over 50, and this person is an incredible scholar, in addition to being a highly valued member of our cohort. We also have some incredibly smart and prolific twenty-somethings. The bottom line is that once you enter the graduate seminar, or the research conference, or the publication process, you are all equals. That said, it takes a few years to figure things out. Older students have less time to waste. They need to hit the ground running HARD from day one. However, for those of us who have endured the hectic life a management job (or whatever else) the opportunity to study deep theory or conduct meaningful research is an absolute dream — and the politics of academia are often no worse than any other job.

As for the post-PhD job market, be open to any and all outcomes. An academic career might be ideal, but a PhD also lends itself well to a number of high-level positions in industry and government. So — provided that you can afford the drop in income during the time it takes to earn the degree, AND provided that you have the support of your immediate family, AND assuming that you have the pedigree, grades and CV to be accepted into a program or several — just go for it!

It is never too late for learning. I am 40, and I just started my Ph.D., and love it. Also, you mentioned that faculty people may get wondering if it’s “too late” for contributing to the body of knowledge. It isn’t because we are living approximately 90 years, and so we still have plenty of times ahead to contribute. Don’t you think that life becomes boring if we continue the same path for so many years! So, cheers to everyone who wants to start a Ph.D. at any age

I totally agree with Viivin no such thing as retire at 65! :)

I am 57 and will be submitting my final thesis next week. I joined for the PhD programme after clearing an entrance test five years ago along with 25 year olds. It has been a learning experience . My 29 years of experience in the corporate world gave me contacts and insights which gave me an edge for my depth interviews (mine was a mixed methods research in social sciences) . Financially it has not been a burden as I was a full time faculty. I had registered as a part time scholar. I have since left my teaching job for personal reasons but plan to reenter after a year’s sabbatical when I also hope to complete the PhD process. I am optimistic. The 5 years has been very challenging and required a fine balancing between teaching and research . I recommend it to anyone interested in an intellectual stimulating life . I presented papers at conferences, got papers published, the works ! Very very different from a corporate world !

I have a DBA, but found this was not fully appreciated by my colleagues who has a PhD or the institute I worked, so at the young and tender age of 44 years old, married for 12 years and have a bouncing boy of 2 years old, I am going to start my PhD in Management with a UK university via distance learning and will probably graduate 5 years later in 2020, but what the heck, I will still have 15 years left of the working life before retirement and should be able to recuperate the funds I will be spending on the PhD. But for me its the achievement that when I complete the PhD, I will have two doctorates to my name and a HERO to myself:). So all those who have written the posts above and in my age bracket, its true you never too old to learn and the more I learn the less I know. All the posts has inspired me to want to move ahead with the PhD and lets see about all those who posted this year and in the early or later years, how they are doing when they have completed their studies…Good Luck all and once again thank you for INSPIRING and MOTIVATING to want to continue.

Don: That is wonderful! I will be 56 next year when I graduate with my PhD in nursing. I don’t plan to retire, I figure that as long as my mind works I will work. I am guaranteed a tenure track position upon graduation and if I want to work hard I can obtain tenure by my 65th birthday. I can also develop my own consulting firm and then maybe only work at the university 9 months out of the year! With the world being so unstable I don’t trust retirement accounts so might as well do something that you can do in your golden years and get respectable pay and great benefits! Remember, we are living long and healthier than ever before and academia keeps your mind sharp!

I will be turning 40 next month. I completed my under graduate in 1996. After working in different support level jobs for 19 years, I have decided to pursue a regular post graduate programme (MBA) followed by Ph.D to try my luck in teaching/research. I will be 46 at the time of receiving my Ph.D. I too was concerned about my age. I felt I would be too old for a teaching job at 46. After reading the posts of many people here, I am confident that passion and hard work will give us the desired results and age will only be a number. Thanks to all those who have inspired me!

Im 37 and had cold feet about taking on a PHD. For all the right Reasons, wanting to contribute to Science. I went ahead. After reading the many of comments posted i feel uplifted. There is room for success and room for failure. Thus far on my road to a PHD i have found my most useful asset has been my socialism skills. Forget my shiny white beard, my class mates enjoy listening to my many life stories.. Zero age discrimination (thus far!) I’ll be doing my PHD with total confidence of a fruitful long career.

I guess I am getting a mixed feeling from reading everything – but more positive rather than negative.

I do think older students can bring a lot to the program – I hope all adcom will give ignore the age factor.

I am just starting the PhD journey myself….and I am old also older than then the average PhD students..

http://phd-ability.blogspot.com/

I am 38 and wondering if I am too old to start a PhD – but then someone told me of a woman of 86 who is very proud to have just got hers. I reckon if you want to do something just do it! Don’t get hung up on age.

You are some of the most self-absorbed people I’ve ever read comments from.

Go study. Study to learn, not to get your PhD. Help other people just for the sake of helping them. Stop being so self-important.

Apparently there are scholarships specifically for elders. I can’t find me source right now but I will look and post later if I can find it.

I’ve just read the majority of the posts, they are all so inspiring, and I’m 47 YOUNG and going for it!! Thank you all.

Think my real question, in all of this, actually is: does age matter in terms of getting a FUNDED PhD? It is evident that it doesn’t necessarily count much in terms of doing a PhD you can fund yourself, luckily.. but is it the same with funded PhDs? I wanna hope that what counts the most in the decision is your academic value/research potential but.. I do wanna know from you lot. I don’t think I’ll start a PhD before 34/35 years old

Depending upon your circumstances you are eligible for a student loan and there are scholarships out there as well. You just have to hunt for them. Good luck

Yes, absolutely… I was just wondering whether age is often an eligibility criterium for those scholarships/funds. It often doesn’t seem to be but you know.. Fear, psychosis and all, haha

Age was NEVER a factor for me. I received a full fellowship, $ 60,000/yr for 3 yrs (under contract to complete the PhD in 3 years plus have to teach at a gulf coast 4 yr nursing school for 3 years) plus last year I received a $ 20,000 Jonas scholarship plus nurse teacher loans that are 80% forgiven! In admission interviews, scholarship talks etc. age was never mentioned, it didn’t matter. We have professors in their 80’s still teaching and doing seminal research! I will be 56 when I graduate next year! Doing my candidacy exam this summer!

As a 48 year old preparing for admission to a PhD program I find this post and comments inspiring. But what is the best strategy for admission in middle age? I am torn between applying now to a low-residency PhD at Antioch university that is not a good fit for my research interests but where I could continue to work or wait another year , get my government pension and apply to traditional programs where my interests are allied with the program. I feel like one year makes a difference when you are starting at my age and am tempted to do a program that while not very prestigious will allow me to make to keep job at least initially.

Also, I will not need funding of any kind. Can I say that up front in my statement? I don’t want any school to think that I will burden the budget.

I came on the internet looking for some kind of reassurance I wasn’t too old for a PhD, I was doubting myself, but thank you to the older people who have posted , who are doing theirs, gives me the courage to do mine, thank you

I am 46 and am finishing my Master’s Degree tomorrow. It will not be official until 15 May 2015. I received a BA in English on 15 May 1992 at 23 and 23 years later my Master’s. I did much better this time for many reasons, mostly because I wanted to do well. I am graduating with honors. I want a Ph.D. for the accomplishment, but I would also like another career. The nice thing is that I will have another retirement coming so there is not the same pressure. I plan on taking it slow and ten years is fine with me. I even plan to take a short break of up to two years before I start.

I’m 43 and I can tell you from experience that age is discriminated against. I’ve been applying for a long time and have an excellent research track. This year the department where I work (at a top tier university) admitted my intern from last year for the exact same PhD student position as I was applying for. The only difference in qualification was age.

Do it now, Vandu, there is a very real difference between 60 and 70..to my surprise. But no matter when, if you still feel deeply curious and are drawn to it then do it. We need more ‘older’ students to bring our perspective to the evolution of thought.

Here’s the bottom line: YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE!!! So, if you still want a doctoral degree and are “older”, SO WHAT?!?! Do it anyways! There’s no cap to learning and growing!!

This last bit by Carole sounds encouraging. I am just past sixty and contemplating starting a PhD programme. I think it’s worthwhile.

I just started my PhD program last year and am now 70 years old. I received my masters in 1971, so it has been a while since I have participated in academia. Thus far it has been a daunting, terrifying, exciting and reaffirming experience. I would love to contact anyone else my age who is going through this process. I still have high hopes of finishing and publishing.

I started mine aged 44 at what would be described as one of Britain’s best universities. I’m now halfway through. My topic relates strongly to the career that I spent 20 years and I’ve been able to draw on a lot of experience. I’m financially independent so have been able to fund myself. The overwhelming positive has been the intellectual stimulation. I’ve truly found it a journey of the mind. An incredible experience. Assuming I pass I’ll really feel that I’ve earned it. But….there have been a lot of things that I’ve struggled with. Universities are extremely hierarchical and as a humble student I’ve often found myself in meetings where I could actually contribute far more than I do, but I don’t want to tread on the Prof’s toes. I’ve also found far more patch protection than I am used to. I’m used to working in teams and academics don’t seem to be that way inclined. It’s also hard to deal with egos – naturally I’m not as subserviant as a 20 year old would be, expecially in the case where the person is my age or younger. Graduate students are expected to be extremely reverential and that’s not easy approaching 50. Also I’m not willing to be ‘dumped on’ in terms of being given work; the younger ones put up with it as they’re trying to forge a career. But the hardest thing has been the hostility from some of the PhD students in their 20s….they’ve not been that friendly…the older PhD students on the other hand have been great. As to what I’m going to do with the degree if I get it? Truth is I don’t know but I suspect I won’t remain in academia. I also suspect finding a job in academia would be hard. For all the noise about welcoming older people it is a conservative industry.

I’d say ‘go for it’. It’s a good experience and you learn humility too which can never hurt. And….conversely….I heard the other day that a 24 year old had finished her doctorate in record time and my reaction was…. how can a kid that age have any wisdom…. it is supposed to be a philosophy degree after all. So turn the question around….when are you too young? I think you get much more from it when you’re older. But be aware of some of the emotional challenges.

I am so happy and inspired by reading all those articles in which people have entered in Ph.D program late in life. I am 47 and want to start my Ph.D. I was hesitant to even think about it due to my age, but now i am confident about joining the program if i get accepted.

I began mine at 53, will finish at 56 and I was the first one accepted into an elite program with only 6 available seats. This is a second career for me and it totally opposite my first. I received a full fellowship of $ 60,000/year with additional $ 20,000’s in scholarships. I am obligated to teach for 3 years and after that I can do what I want and either stay in academia or go into industry. I am finding that being older is an advantage. My current PhD will be in nursing, my prior career was in international business with an MBA so go figure!

You’re lucky and blessed Gioia! Keep the luck and blessing enhanced by redistributing knowledge and understanding – it helps to grease the wheels that make the world rotate with less frictions..

I plan to Henri and thank you for the encouragement! Will be graduating Aug 2016, must complete in 3 years, its part of the contract!

Dear I have completed my bachelor degree(I have no study gap but we have completed our 4 years hons course in 6 year and 1 years masters course in 2.5 years due to our university session concession) when I was 27……I am now near 30 just finished my course based master degree but no job experience yet and I am going to do second research master degree(3 years master program in China) with scholarship in medical image processing and after finished my second masters I have desired to do PhD in Medical imaging and I am so disappoint about my carrier because I will be too old if I do begin my PhD and my frustration is I have no job experience yet and going to be older……..when I will finished my PhD my age will be then 36 or 37…..Is this too old for Academia without job experience?

I am in late 40’s and considering PhD in Computer Science/IT Business Management. It seems that only feasible option for me at this point is online PhD. What are your opinions on credibility and quality of online programs. By the way, my goals are mainly educational, progressing the field and have somewhat a competitive edge in otherwise relatively successful career. Of course, I would like an opportunity to teach in the future, but that is a “nicety” not a primary goal. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Hello. I think I read this post sometime back and came across it again when Googling today: Is it too late to pursue a PhD in your 40s? I started college a little over four years ago to pursue a long time passion, evolutionary anthropology/archaeology. I’m now 42, my bachelors requirements fulfilled. I have driven many professors crazy asking all sorts of questions regarding pursuing a PhD as an adult in your 40s, therefore I think I can contribute a little to this post.

I literally started out by walking to the nearest college thinking you can just stay until you’ve reached a PhD. That’s not the case. I discovered that graduate programs aren’t keen in taking their own undergraduates. It can happen, but you would have to really “wow” a professor and/or did some outstanding research. So of course, one would have to look at other graduate programs. This is where it may be problematic for some, because it literally means packing up and moving to a distant state/country. In a sense, you are re-establishing your life from square one.

I think it REALLY matters what type of PhD program you are pursuing. I think that the more advanced a PhD program is (biochemistry engineering, medical, etc), it will become more difficult for an older student. However, not saying it cannot be done.

There are advantages to being an older student and many professors also remarked the same thing: older students tend to be more serious, mature, less-partying, more focused, and most importantly, have a mission in mind. One professor mentioned an older “successful” student, who came in, funded his own research, and did a stellar job.

The best advice that I can dispense is 1. in whatever you are doing, do WELL, 2. ask your professors if you can help them in any of their research, 3. do a senior honors thesis (if in your undergrad years), 4. accumulate as much experience doing internships (whether paid/unpaid, a week or 2 months), 5. KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!! This is probably number 1!! Don’t just pursue a PhD because you want to be ‘distinguished,’ know what you want to do and why 6. Understand that this will consume lots of time and you won’t be living luxuriously (unless you have a healthy bank account). 7. My professors have all said one universal thing, grad school is not about grades, but about how well you can get along. I have slowly discovered this fact to be true.If you are an introvert, or don’t have people skills, consider brushing up social interaction techniques. 8. A lot of where you go in your graduate studies is not really about grades, but who you know and how well you get along with others. 9. Accrue as much field work (if applicable in your field) as you can. In my case, I volunteered for months doing archaeological work. 10. Research. A big factor faculty look at is what research have you done. This can be accomplished by doing an honors thesis, asking a professor to volunteer in their lab, etc.

You ultimately want to create a CV that you will tack on all experiences, all research, all internships, all fieldwork, etc -everything that you can add on to show that you are serious and experienced. Many professors admit to me that they look through stacks of applications from students with good grades and/or good universities, but what they look for is experience and what research, what skills, what have they done with their time. You’ll want to authentically paint yourself as the best possible applicant.

Oh, GREs. This seems to be of importance when applying to gradschool. Most require them. It is important you do well on them (it’s like an SAT but for gradschool). Again, professors stated that although they look at GREs, what is more important is what you bring to the table (see above).

Originally started out with extreme joy pursuing a BS in the last four years, but I must admit, I feel a bit uncertain. I have met many PhD and other grad students who are literally living on the edge. Meaning getting by with bare minimum: tiny apartment with just a bed/books, ramen noodles, etc. Some are lucky to have great parents. Some aren’t. I myself have sacrificed lots of things and live sort of on the edge. It is no joke going fulltime, doing lab research, and volunteering your time to accrue experience. Keep this in mind.

I have met some older students who are military veterans that use their GI Bill to fund their studies. Some are single parents. You must know what you want to do and why. Professors have told me that some students come but don’t really have a passion for what they are doing. You get a certain amount of time to complete a PhD (I think 7yrs max for my university). You can get kicked out of the program if you have produced nothing. Keep this in mind.

If you are pursuing a Phd/Grad in something else, do your best to fuse your talents and/or past experience into the new. Example, I met a former IT guy who also pursued archaeology and he used his tech skills in archaeology by creating a remote archaeological lab, archaeological scanning utility, a database, and other cool stuff. People really look for this.

Hope my tidbits are useful.

Read about this professor if you still think you are too old:

http://cass.knust.edu.gh/about/history/past-provosts/dbuor

I could have agreed intoto with you if not that the world out there does not admit a perfect Prince simply because the real world is full of imperfections, once said Nichole Machiavelle. It is a capitalist world that demands results and profit, leaving many if not all without lovelier options. Under this circumstance, doing PhD at retirement seems more suitable for learning with love and for the sake of love than learning under materialist pressures.

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I say it is never too old to study for a PhD. Of course, it depends on the reason you want it. However, I do feel the world of learning has moved too much towards “vocational” qualifications and away from learning for the love of learning. I love learning. I would love the challenge and the discipline in taking a PhD purely for the pleasure of learning when I retire.However, looking at the comments here, it would appear I will need to return to my home country (UK) to get the best opportunity and the best experience. (I do not like the sound of the way the Americans organise these courses). A friend of mine took his PhD through a University in Wales (UK) upon retiring at the age of 70 – the fees were a retirement gift from his colleagues. he loved it, and did extremely well. People who are continually excited to learn are very good for society, and a great example to their children and grandchildren. Indeed, it is a shame that our curiosity as children is so quickly corrupted into learning for results and profit.

When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/iaSQa5cCTm

When I got my MS at 52, many suggested I’d make a good college professor. It’s very hard to do that with just an MS, and the length of time to get the PhD would leave me at 57 – 59, hardly enough time to find work for any reasonable length of time (20+ years would bring me to almost 80). Not saying I couldn’t do it intellectually, but with two kids in college that would give my family 3 people of 4 not working and trying to pay for undergrad and grad school for several years. If it was only me, I’d probably go for it, since my thought processes work best in academia… but my family has to count for something.

Nice article, though; thanks for sharing your opinion.

As a 64 year old returning to the job market after many years raising my children whom I had later in life, I found that I needed an advanced degree to re-enter with ANY hope of getting a job. Degree inflation is real. A BA no longer cuts it. It really wasn’t that difficult getting back into the swing of school (not having children at home made it much easier), but I really don’t think that I want to spend the additional 4-6 years getting a PhD.

Not sure if this helps or worsens my perpetual existential dilemma. “When are you too old for a PhD?” by @cblatts http://t.co/zqH5Pe9Ods

When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/F9MhcxtC1q

@ksarkar_When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/AyyycgJOmt

Please Professor, don’t say or use ***anyways again, it’s anyway. no offense intended.

When are you too old for a PhD? – Chris Blattman http://t.co/26lZMluWb3

When are you too old for a PhD? What do you think AFSAAP-ers? Is it different here? http://t.co/PS919HXx9c

RT @javieraparicio: When are you too old for a PhD? | by @cblatts http://t.co/aQCWHKh5DF

I started my PhD (Kinesiology) at age 30. I am almost 32 now. It’s very hard.

The most important advice comes after answering 1 simple question:

Do you have what it takes to complete a PhD?

If you think you do, and you KNOW it’s right for you, do it. If you hesitate, or think that maybe you won’t finish, or that you are not smart enough, or you just deep down on the inside don’t think you have what it takes, don’t do it.

Informative post by Blattman. When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/t3kGbbpOoC

RT @docteo_net: “Quand est-on trop vieux pour faire un #doctorat ?” (EN) Le point de vue de @cblatts, prof. à @Columbia -> http://t.co/WS6F…

RT @horatiurus: Very sensible advice from @cblatts: “When are you too old for a PhD? The updated advice post. http://t.co/qzqcGKQBiP” #PhD …

Very sensible advice from @cblatts: “When are you too old for a PhD? The updated advice post. http://t.co/qzqcGKQBiP” #PhD in soc sciences

When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/h7IHCt2Jeo

When are you too old for a PhD? by @cblatts http://t.co/iGIamFX5rk

RT @msantoro1978: Quando você é velho demais para o doutorado? “Se você é curioso o suficiente, nunca.” Com duas restrições. http://t.co/Ue…

Quando você é velho demais para o doutorado? “Se você é curioso o suficiente, nunca.” Com duas restrições. http://t.co/Ue0TZ7fsJ1

“Quand est-on trop vieux pour faire un #doctorat ?” (EN) Le point de vue de @cblatts, prof. à @Columbia -> http://t.co/WS6FomBy6D

RT @Kapongola: When are you too old for a PhD? Started at 34yrs, still most people in my country think its too early #Tanzania http://t.co/…

When are you too old for a PhD? Started at 34yrs, still most people in my country think its too early #Tanzania http://t.co/jGCFJ1piKF

“I’m not sure the #PhD is rewarded more. You have to want it for its own sake” @cblatts #PhDChat #DoingaPhD #career http://t.co/jGCFJ1piKF

RT @cblatts: When are you too old for a PhD? The updated advice post. http://t.co/jkFNNsAjw5

When are you too old for a PhD? // I did start mine at 28 and still going… ho oldness…. http://t.co/PbQ9bpPiTq

RT @cblatts: My “When are you too old for a PhD?” post is updated. Thanks to readers for so many comments. http://t.co/V3GSiDXD72

When are you too old for a PhD? – Chris Blattman http://t.co/PS919HXx9c

PhD-life tradeoffs in general: “a constant source of existential angst when you’re in the midst of it” http://t.co/ZRz5tUqX9U h/t @cblatts

When are you too old for a PhD? – Chris Blattman http://t.co/DqAmSbrhc4

When are you too old for a PhD? | by @cblatts http://t.co/aQCWHKh5DF

“A constant source of existential angst when you’re in the midst of it.” @cblatts on when one is too old for a PhD: http://t.co/lOobTgVvQj

@raulpacheco @cblatts The best time – when you are ready and have funding.

When are you too old to start a PhD? Some good advice from @cblatts http://t.co/BDbWWRqVMH

“@cblatts: My “When are you too old for a PhD?” post is updated. Thanks to readers for so many comments. http://t.co/2S11kQs6IW”

.@cnbinaa well done! As @cblatts indicates, mid-career folks who start PhDs presumably have time/project management skills youngsters don’t

@raulpacheco @cblatts I’ve started a mid-career PhD, at age 43 – we’ll see how it goes, but I think it will help with my applied research.

In which @cblatts updates his 2013 post on whether anyone is too old to start a PhD http://t.co/HPwlVn5ABQ TL:DR – it all depends.

When are you too old for a PhD? – Chris Blattman http://t.co/eFSKE97KLf

Too old for PhD? Not necessarily http://t.co/ugxGal0gQ7

RT @cblatts Asks when we are too old for the PhD – perhaps never? http://t.co/CujOPvPIjL @HowardAldrich @raulpacheco @amhst20

This a very usefull and thoughtfull post, and I personally thank you for it since I am exactly 28 and I am thinking about applying for a PhD.

I have some complementary thoughts though, regarding an applicant context and nationality. For instance, I am from Nicaragua, and here not many people have the opportunity to study graduate programs, and those who do are either very very previledged young people (meaning a 1%) or are professionals over 30 yearsold, who have develop a special interest in research and academia (which is pretty rare here, believe me), especially in the field of Humanities (including Economics and Political Sciences).

So, there are two options for these people: (1) apply for a scholarship abroad, either in the US, Europe, or any country worldwide that offered funding; or (2) do a PhD here (at home) which follows a completely different logic, since it is not fulltime, not even part time. Here, PhDs are done by meeting twice a month or during weekends, so PhD candidates can work and pay attention to their family and domestic obligations. My guess is that responds to a large demand of 40+ years old university professors and private sector proffesionals who did not get any graduate degrees before (cause it wasn’t necessary workwise) but now see it as important.

In my particular case, I did my bachelors in Canada (International Development Studies and Anthropology) but I always knew I wanted to work and live home. During the past years I have done research and taught at three Universities. This helped me get a better understading of what I wanted to do for my graduate studies. However, I want to do it abroad, since I like the academic logic of US and European academias.

So I feel I am in the middle of two very different academic worlds (kind of north vs south) with different admissions requirements and working logics. Therefore I wonder if the suggestions and thoughts you express about PhD applications apply equally to international applicants, especially those from the global south (it can pass as a Development topic too hehehe).

My guess is that I might be equally evaluated by Admisions committees as locals, this might include considerations about my age, and of course my carreer path so far, just as you highlight. But I also hope that there are some considerations about my context too, and its particular circumstances.

I would like to know if other Internationa Applicants relate to this situation, or is it just Central American.

Thank you again, and I hope to hear if you have any futher thoughts.

HAPPY 2015 :)

I started my PhD at 30 but had to immediately take a leave of absence when I was diagnosed with breast cancer about a month after starting classes. One advantage of starting later was the time to fully consider and explore my career choices, as well as what getting a PhD would mean for those choices. It also meant that I had the opportunity to live abroad and travel extensively for several years. The two biggest challenges, however, have been health issues and children. Although 30 is extremely young to be diagnosed with breast cancer, the older you are, the greater the chances of having a serious medical issue. Unfortunately there is no concept of “medical leave” at most graduate programs, and complications due to my lengthy absence almost forced me out of the program. As for children, due to my age it simply wasn’t an option to wait until getting a job or tenure. Not only do graduate programs typically not offer “medical leave,” but there is no option for “maternity leave” as well. The clock to complete the program on time and in good standing doesn’t pause for these life issues either. I don’t regret the age I began my PhD, but the lack of medical and maternity options do make it harder for older students.

I took a variety of PhD level courses at Harvard econ as a special student on leave from UK Treasury aged 25 but kept asking myself whether any of it would be useful in the policy world so I went back to policy work. 10 years later I was finally ready. I knew exactly what I wanted to do my thesis on, had all the data from my work at the IMF and was lucky to find a loophole in the UK system which meant I did not have to retake the course work I had done for my masters. I wrote my thesis on a 9 month leave from IMF. My PhD has proved useful in my current job but I never wanted to be an academic (see my blog on academic vs policy work http://runningres.com/blog/2014/1/13/policy-versus-academic-jobs-in-economics .

As of now, comments have focused on experiences of people older than 25-26 when starting their graduate programmes. I would like to turn the question around for a moment: Why are there (perceived or real) barriers for people slightly (or considerably) older and who have a different CV from the high school-BA-MA-PhD trajectory? I would be surprised if the feared inability to produce the same (total) number of publications as researchers starting younger—as mentioned somewhere in the comments—were a decisive factor. But youth is generally considered to be adaptable to change and to bring innovation. While it is not clear how much change and innovation are valued in academic circles this could be a perceived disadvantage for people who are considerably older.

Second, it may be argued that many strands of academia don’t give enough credit to ‘real life experiences’, which include relevant professional experiences. Having ventured outside the realm of academia seems to be a significant disadvantage – in the eyes of a considerable number of academics. In political science, for example, it is often assumed that anyone who has worked with governments and policy-makers would be suitable for ‘policy schools’ only (which are considered less academic). And so far most comments here have only talked about older faculty’s ability to conduct research. How do we stand on their ability to teach and mentor? (I think that faculty members with significant ‘outside-academia’ experience would have an advantage in this regard.)

Third, the standard vitae of most candidates for junior faculty positions follow a linear path. Thus, people falling outside the usual pattern are more difficult to rank according to the usual criteria.

Fourth – and maybe senior colleagues can shed more lights on this matter – there may be aspects of power to be considered. If someone joins as junior faculty at the age of 35, 40, 45 it can be expected that their integration process will be different from a 28, 30 year-old. Them being older and having a stronger opinion, while being in a formally inferior position, may change dynamics in a department (or this may be feared).

Thus, I hope that Chris will be able to aptly summarize the comments here and contribute to the wider debate that is needed in academia: Should academe put more value on relevant professional activities? Should this be connected to an increased focus on the relevance of academic research (and the acknowledgment that we should contribute less to “the literature” and more to real life problems, as Herbert Gans recently urged sociologist to do?). How should diversity not only in terms of ethnic, gender and socio-economic characteristics but also in terms of age structure and different life experiences be valued at departments?

I started mine at 37 and finished at 42. I’d say age is the last thing you should worry about.

The best bit of advice I got before going for the PhD was this: getting a PhD is like getting married – you have to love the subject. If you like the subject, it’s going to be a living hell. If you love the subject, it just might work out.

I’m tempted to counter, when are you too young? I started my PhD at 46, and hope to complete by the time I am 50 (ambitious but feasible because I am not starting from scratch). I sit in classes with some very young souls – all smart and curious but with so much experience still to acquire to help them understand what matters and what doesn’t. I also have to note that the majority of grad students I meet are on a scale of somewhat to very dissatisfied – no one finds a PhD easy, but do so many have to find it so hard? I think a bit more life experience would help put the agony into perspective. Though of course, there may be selection bias at work, too. It is a very (very) small subset of the population that embarks on a PhD in the first place.

The PhD in mid-career was a personal decision – intellectual curiosity, dissatisfaction with the policy loops I observed (and the dialogue of the deaf among the ministries/disciplines/constituencies that I wanted to break out of), living in a new place and needing an intellectual community, a desire for new career challenges after 20 very satisfying years in mostly NGO-based policy work. I do not find it easy, and have had to adjust my self-image as “good at school” (with kids and a long commute, as well as a few continuing professional obligations, I don’t have all the hours in the day most students have and I am not as focused either). Yet I have found it tremendously satisfying to be able to read, think, and argue about ideas without having to jump immediately to the policy-relevance, or the campaign design, or the funding proposal. It’s precious not to have to do something about everything you touch upon, but just to think about the issue for a while. Which is something I can appreciate from my vantage point, but that my younger colleagues, who have yet to experience the applied policy world, can find frustrating.

Like another commentator, I have found it easy to get funding, too – I cannot tick all the boxes required, but I do know how to write a proposal. And I know a lot about how what I investigate could make a difference. The big test will come this year and next – can I design and implement research to create new knowledge? I am looking forward to the challenge.

And after? I think I could probably get an academic post, but probably not in a traditional department in a traditional school – I am doing an inter-disciplinary degree, so age is not the only thing against me (nor the biggest). But there are lots and lots of kinds of jobs out there, and I didn’t start on this to become a professor anyway, wonderful as aspects of that life are. I wanted to learn how to learn in a more informed way, I wanted time to read and consider other perspectives, and a chance to ask a lot of questions. There simply is no age at which such a project could not have value, and no age at which such skills won’t be relevant to what comes next.

I finished a Ph.D at the age of 37. When I returned from an eight year assignment with FAO and the Dutch government in Nicaragua and had a valuable experience to report on, lots of data collected in research during action and in action and theoretical reflections that contributed to the theories of economic development and the role of agricultural producers.

Those to elements, experience and new contributions to theory are the two important elements that make a Ph.D study a valuable one and it takes more years of research and thinking. Therefore good Ph.Ds are produced by elder persons.

I do not think the argument for a Ph.D and the moment to produce it should be measured by the career opportunities of the student. The state of the Art and the possibilities to contribute to its progress is the only relevant measurement.

I started my PhD at 40. It is never too late, people. Stop searching for excuses on the internet.

I started my PhD in architecture at 57 and finished at 63. Might have been slowing down a little….. To be honest, I’ve not really looked for work afterwards – just took up my supervisor’s offer of temporary contracts as a research associate. May be assistant supervisor to a new PhD student soon.

At age 37, I went back full-time to the same university I dropped out of 18 years earlier (Penn State). Got two BA degrees at age 42 and more than one funded Masters degree offer; dropped out of the first one (Pepperdine) and graduated from the second one (Indiana) at age 48 with an MS. Had more than one offer and went into a fully-funded PhD program at 49 (Clemson), got the degree at 53 and during that time traveled to three continents and over 15 countries presenting research.

Challenges as a returning adult are real but so are the opportunities. I definitely have gotten age discrimination since getting the PhD but am fortunate to have also had amazing opportunities including visiting assistant professorships and teaching in renown graduate programs. I’ve taught at Johns Hopkins, been hired by NYU, and currently teach online with a university, and am on faculty at an ivy-league college.

Tenure-track doesn’t have much draw at this age apart from the obvious stability earning it. I’m far more interesting in grants (NSF grants are mostly awarded to older candidates) and collaboration (authoring and editing books), as well as keeping my research interests alive while teaching. My experience, while not typical, leaves me to believe the better question posed by this forum would be, “When are you too young for a PhD?” And my answer would be when you choose to go into a PhD program before you’ve lived your life to its fullest outside of academe.

We’re all different. Most worthwhile programs have admissions committees that encourage diversity and if your GPA, GREs, and entrance essay are attractive and compelling, they are not going to refuse you admission for a higher degree just because of your age. I once had an administrator at Penn State tell me the best higher degree programs don’t want you if you are over 35 because you are not malleable (I was 38 at the time). As with everything in life, you don’t let others pee on your parade but let their negativity be impetus to push you to prove them wrong.

Hi! Sorry for the intromission, I’ve read your posts with great interest, because I’d want to start a PhD too. I’m 24 yrs old, I’m italian and I’m up to graduate here in Italy. I know I have to pass lots of exams in order to get admitted (and I’m sorely aware that I have to improve my english before XD). I hope I’ll have a chance since I’d want to join a PhD in Italian Studies, but I think it’ll take a bit long until I’ll be ready to put in for admission. Maybe I’ll be 27 until then. Will I be too old to start as a foreign student? And what do you suggest me to do, in the meantime, in order to get more chances? What kind of experiences are most valuable and considered? Thanks you for the attention :D

27 is a perfectly normal age at which to atart a PhD, why on earth should that be late??? As you might have realised from the answers, plenty of people start it even later. Personally, I am not in favour of starting it too early, as one tends to know less what one wants, but that’s just my opinion. Maybe doing a master abroad would help you figure out more about research aims and would improve your academic english. As for requirements… apart from language, all you really need to gain access to a PhD is a good academic career… and a well-written research project a professor might be interested in supervising and working on later with you. You might have zero work experience and still be a very suitable PhD candidate. Many I know followed that path, in fact.

@BrandPhD Hello, it was a pleasure to read your post. I am 31 and thinking to “go back to school” after 6 years in the industry, but I am a bit scared about the financial part of it. I mean, at the moment I have a very good income and I don’t know if I would manage to support my current lifestyle (rent, car, private pension, etc) as a full-time student. If I decide to keep my job and try for a part-time PhD, then I’m afraid that I will be stuck every day with either my job or my PhD research and neglect my wife (we are hoping to have children soon as well). I just don’t want to take a selfish decision, but in the same time I really feel that I could do more. Thanks!

Dan Take the issue up with your wife by discussing frankly about it.The more she embarks on the project with you, the better. That is, table it down as something good not just for you but the family building. The idea that it implies collective improvement with collective sacrifice is worth noting. H

Great reading this thread and some really inspiring posts.

I started my PhD in marketing in my late 30s. I will be 43 when I finish. I am doing the PhD part-time – a luxury as I am able to work and have a respectable income while pursuing my academic goals. It is not for the faint of heart and it’s definitely not easy. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve woken up on a Saturday morning looking for that weekend’s motivation to work. One has to have a strong, inner motivation to proceed and finish (not unlike what full-time students feel – just exacerbated). I too was worried when I first started that my age would be a factor. Honestly, it’s not and no one cares. There are quite a few students who are quite a bit older than me in my business school. I’ve also attended conferences and met PhD students of all ages (oldest I recall was in their 60s).

I chose to do a PhD after completing my MBA and wanting something ‘more’. I took a good look at my counterparts in industry and wondered ‘is this all there is’? I wanted something more for my future. With a PhD, I can continually learn, meet new, interesting and like-minded people and most importantly – help others. Helping others could be in the form of consulting companies, teaching students, writing books and contributing to knowledge. I would like to move to a role in academia upon completion – and I know it will be a challenge. If for some reason the job market proves to be too tough – there are SO many more roads open to me with this qualification and the personal branding that will come with it. I can consult, teach MBA classes, write books, give commentary to media outlets, etc. The list goes on and on.

Something I learned when very close to death due to an illness a few years ago is to not let others dictate your future. Life is precious – if you want something – go and get it – don’t wait for others permission or acceptance to do so.

Thank you all of you for this beautiful conversation over the connection between age and tertiary education. I am 36 years old now…and have just completed my school diploma from one of the remote schools in Africa. I will enroll in an undergrad program in January, and will study for five years to earn my BSc Degree in Engineering.. The Kuliche University ( name altered for this story) has never felt bad about my age, I do not think they look at it at all. Following that i have a plan to cross over those famous countries, which I only heard about, such as USA or Australia, or UK or Germany or Honollulu to study for my masters and phd study in science.

I’m currently going to school for my Bachelors. I’ll be roughly 35 by the time I start working on my Psy.D. I know I’ll be closer to 40 when I finish, but I think it’ll be worth it.

Hi all, I’m from Mumbai, India, damn inspired by the post of you all, especially, Karen, Iris et al; as am 47 now with 25 yrs industry experience in sales/mktg and MBA degree. Wishing to pursue my PhD from overseas in marketing strategy.

I have an issue related to maths & operations research ad am weak in these areas. Can someone guide me as to whether my average past academic record with maths being weak will prove to be an impediment in getting admitted to PhD? I have an immense drive, patience and a will to pursue though, finance would be another issue.

I seek mentoring from my friends on this platform. Rgds.

It’s never too late to create a life you love. You must be prepared to hear, “How old will you be when you finish?” a number of times. I learned to answer this one with a quip, “The same age I’ll be if I don’t finish!”

Thanks Alexandra. Pleased to meet you. I started out in law but moved across to criminology. I won’t name the organisation where I did my masters but it is world famous. Many of the PhDs are early to mid 30s with a couple being ex-prisoners who turned their lives around. One of them has just finished aged 43 and got a lectureship. I supposed to finish this masters in my mid 20s and I actually felt intimidated by them. I don’t find early to mid-30s too late at all, especially if one is left working until age 70.

Hi Laura, I have a very similar experience to yours, and I, too, will be starting my PhD at around that age / 34, for pretty much the same reason. To be perfectly honest, I don’t think it matters a lot, in most cases. Judging by a friend of mine who’s a PhD graduate in Financial Mathematics, it probably does in a field like hers, but it doesn’t in most others, if I look at the patterns followed by other friends in prestigious institutions – and yes, they did start their PhD’s in their 30s. I think all that really matters here is the drive. Competition, in sane environments, is essentially based around that. I also think that coming out of a depression and still being determined and dedicated to one’s own project says a lot about the temperament and endeavour of a person, and I think that counts in positive terms :)

I’ll probably be starting my PhD aged 32-33. Basically I have no choice. I graduated top of my class and won a scholarship for a masters at one of the best universities in the world. I had an awful time there – something serious happened to me. I spent much of my 20s severely depressed. The only serious work experience I have is an as research assistant for a few months with publications before things got massively out of hand. I am just about to graduate from a 2nd masters with very good grades this time. I am sad for the years I’ve lost but I am still alive and a friend was murdered.

I am coming to the end of my first year PhD in biomedical science and I am 55. I went to university to do my degree at the age of 48 after a long career as a theatre sister. I agree with William that your age is irrelevant. I could never envisage myself reaching retiral age as a nurse, but I can foresee myself in the research/teaching role for as long as I am able.

I finished a Master’s degree at 57 and started in a PhD program at 58, I will be in my 60’s when I finish my dissertation. How old you are when you start is irrelevant, what is relevant is that you continue learning. “Once you stop learning, you start dying” (Albert Einstein).

Great topic. I am 37 and looking at PhD programs. I currently hold a f/t staff position at a college and I am an adjunct instructor. The challenge is finding a way to make it all work together. I’ll be applying for the Fall 2015 and I’ll be 38 by then. I have a great deal of passion for this pursuit, but I am trying to be as logical and deliberate as possible for my family’s sake. I appreciate all of the information in this discussion.

I think it´s better to bring the family behind you, especially if you are the homely guy and don´t desire any squables with any member of or all your family during and after your PhD. The spur, however, can be more emotional than rational. The choice is always yours.

Thanks to all your comments. I’m 45 and considering to apply for a PhD in public health. it’s been inspiring to read all your experiences. Many thanks!

The issue has been the feasibility of opting for PhD at a considerably later stage in life. By the way, I don’t consider 28 as a very advanced age. But if it is assumed to be, what I believe is basically needed beyond a soundly rounded up master degree course (where required) is a competitive and enduring PhD project. If you are able, possibly through facullty contacts, to secure a supervisor before hand, that is, one that identifies with your project in terms of interest and supervisory capacity, I don´t think you´ll encounter outright rejection. In other words, what matters here is the differential contribution you will be making through your PhD knowledge or experiences.

What if you are applying for a PhD program at 28 and don’t have any work experience to use as a reason for applying this late in life? It took me awhile to finish my BA simply due to immaturity (though I eventually graduated with honors and ended up in Phi Beta Kappa).

At my late 40s, I started a fulltime PhD course with a fellowship grant from one of the leading universities in western Europe. I finished up in early 50s. The only problem I encountered was supervisory laxity from the first order supervisor. Unexpectedly and happily, though at an advanced stage, the second order supervisor took over in a more efficient manner. I remember there was an Asian colleague over 70 years that successfully defended his thesis. My observations are that age is no serious barrier. With objetivity, focus and determination you can go through the rigors of doing a PhD with others. Moreover, publications in mostly first order international journals boost post-doc job placings. I’m delighted I’m increasingly gaining ground in the research and teaching profession. As regards securing funding, particularly, scholarships, there are many institutions or organizations worldwide that offer financial assistance for PhD students, sometimes, independent of age. In short, some emphasize postgraduate work experience as an added advantage for admission. Sometimes, the internet can be source of information for institutions that offer financial support.

I completed my master’s degree in Anthropology at age 32, but then I got married and had 2 kids. I couldn’t afford to continue my education at that time. I worked as a research coordinator and research project manager for the next 20 years. Finally, at age 52, I had the time and money to enter a doctoral program. I will graduate next year at the age of 60! I know that I probably won’t get a high-powered academic position at an R01 university, but I’m looking forward to getting a teaching or reaching position somewhere. Don’t put off your dreams; if you can’t go full-time, try working a few classes in here and there. If you are older and still want to complete your doctorate, DO IT! You only live once! You might not get the job of your dreams, but I bet you’ll get a good position somewhere! GO FOR IT!!!

Started my PhD at 28 (in statistics). Before that, I was a high school teacher. I love my field and I love my work. If you’re passionate about it, you should do it.

Thanks for this most informative blog.

What are the chances of getting funding to do a PhD after 50?

Will a significant no of academic publications help in that regard?

Thank you very much fir that narrative, LebaneseDynamo.

I read every word and distilled it within me.

Your conclusion is inspiring.

I started my PhD in Computational Biology at age 50 and I should be completed by the end of this year (age 55). I know that students who have worked in industry for at least a couple of years are more likely to be accepted into programs in my discipline. I have already spent 35 years in the computer industry and wanted to expand my horizon. The real question is not the age of the person, but the desire and commitment of that person to completing the grueling process of research and publication. You must also look at the job market for your desired field of study. If there are many students graduating in the field, it becomes less likely that you will receive an offer when they can select someone with lower salary requirements or expectations (older students often have greater responsibilities and therefor cost more to hire). My goal is to teach at the college level, but I do not need to find a tenured position. I am not looking to build another career. Most of the graduate students that I am associated with, are in their late 20s and early 30s. Most of the ones that have completed postdoc positions and accepted tenured teaching positions are early to mid 30s. Receiving a PhD is not the final test into the hall of academia, but only pass that allows you to enter the competition of finding a paying position. No one is going to hand you a PhD, you must dedicate yourself and work hard to find a complete that journey. Likewise, you must dedicate yourself with the same passion and hard work to obtain a position.

I wished that I had seen earlier the post on this blog. Age does matter, not so much in terms of entering a PhD program, but after receiving your PhD and trying to procure a job. Usually I exude a positive attitude, but in this respect I apologize for being the “Debby Downer” of the group. Here is my lengthy narrative in hopes that people might learn from my experience. BTW, I am planning on presenting a paper on ageism in academe if anyone is interested in providing narratives, please contact me at : [email protected] At age 48 I entered a PhD program in international and intercultural education at the Rossier School of Education, University of Southern California. At age 55 I received my PhD in May 2009. At age 60, after applying to 60 universities, I only received 3 interviews and yet no permanent job. I worked one semester as an emergency hire professor at the Department of American Studies and Ethnicity at USC in Fall 2010 (because of my research interests and publications I can teach in both depts., Education and American Studies and Ethnicity). For three spring semesters, 2010-2013 I taught American Studies/Ethnicity at Al Azhar University in Gaza Strip. Yes, my luck of finding a job I was obliged to teach in a war conflict zone—I am of Lebanese descent and speak Arabic so the cultural affinity helped in teaching there. I also speak, write, and read fluently four languages, French, Spanish, Arabic, and English.

My grey hair albeit flawless unwrinkled skin has something to do with it, but if you are honest and list the year of graduation from college, Search Committee can do the math. Don’t ask me to dye my hair, won’t work I have terrible allergies, stopped dyeing my hair when I entered the PhD program at age 48.

I had received my BA in psychology from Pitzer College, one of the esteemed Claremont Colleges, and had completed my master’s coursework in cultural anthropology, along with submitting my master’s thesis proposal. I decided to make a change in my career trajectory while still in the MA program Bullocks Dept. Stores, now Macy’s Corporate, recruited me into their executive training program. Circa late 70s early 80s Federated Dept. Stores prided themselves in recruiting employees who had graduated from college and better yet pursuing a MA degree, unlike in the past who were high school graduate recruitees–no classicism intended. In my case, the recruiters favored my strengths in statistical analysis that would easily transfer to analyze financial statements as well as my background promised potential managerial skills. I state this fact as it relates to a comment by a former poster that Search Committees, whether you are applying for an assistant professorship or entrance in a PhD program, are interested in how your previous work experience fits in with your present interests. In reading my narrative thus far, a few of you might be asking why I made the change–simply I did not see a future career in anthropology (regrettably at the present anthropology departments have reduced in size and have become antediluvian). After working 3 years for Federated Dept. Stores, I opened up three retail stores for 20 years, and the last 12 years started a footwear line that plastered the front pages of most young fashion magazines (Marie Claire, Elle). My largest clients were Nordstrom and Macy’s with 300 independent shoe and specialty stores in US, UK, and Central America. In 2001 I was met with not only the 9/11 crisis but also my father at age 86 developed lung cancer (non smoker) and my mother, who played a key role in my business, had to not only care for him, but our well established new car dealerships. In addition, for the last 5 years of my 20 year business, I wanted to return to academia and pursue my PhD. I chose the field of education as it was a professional field and felt that my previous global experience, travelling quite a bit and speaking four languages would fit in with the international/intercultural education program at USC, and acceptance in the program would be easier. As a past academic, I had a strong theoretical foundation in the social sciences, and I probably would have been more well suited in the departments of sociology and psychology–and a high GPA. Upon the recommendation of the career center at USC, I do not list my work history in the 80s and 90s, unless during an interview the Search Committee person asks. With respect to the three interviews granted 1) two were for post doctoral fellowships, and 2) a lower level research analyst, coincidentally from my undergrad alma mater, Pitzer College. The first post doctoral fellowship position, the Chair of the Search Committee seemed intrigued by my research interests and one of my publications. She also was acquainted with the prodigious, awarding winning research of one of my Dissertation Committee members. Then the following comment slipped out of her mouth, “Oh, I noticed that you attended a PhD program at a later age like myself”. Our interview ended amicably, but I did not make the finals. The second interview, the Chair of the Search Committee invited two young international PhD students (in their twenties). One asked me a question about the types of theories that I apply to my research. Having a stronger theoretical foundation in the social sciences than most PhDs in education, she apparently did not like my response. Most educational theories are water downed sociological and psychological theories, and while I am eclectic, I tend to use the purer versions of sociological and psychological theories. Again, did not make the finalist list. Third job interview, I knew that I might be overqualified, but put forward a positive attitude and told them that I was able to help them out with part-time work especially for my alma mater. The interviewer was 30ish, an adjunct lecturer in education at a local Cal State University, and Afghani born, but matriculated in U.S. universities. As I left the interview, he popped the question, oh, what date did you graduate from Pitzer? I found out later that he was unskilled as an interviewer and the college profusely apologized. Okay, some of you might ask, how about your publishing record. Good question. I have 2 research publications, one that is cited by prominent scholars in education, who publish on the topic of diversity, campus climate, discrimination. My specialization is Arab American and Muslim Americans. I am known for conducting the first large scale study in an educational setting– post-9/11 Arab Americans and Muslim American community college students along with a comparison group of non-Arab and non-Muslim students (African Americans, Latinos, Asians, and Whites). In addition, I had a qualitative component to my student, focus groups. I have three manuscripts, one collaborative effort and two other in international education, that are being submitted to journals. I realize that I should have more publications, but at an older age in entry to the PhD program at USC, they placed me with an associate professor as my doctoral advisor. He was 20 years my senior. He was not a grant producer, had published just enough articles to obtain tenure, and rode on the coattails of grant producing professors. Outcome: he did not have teaching assistants–so any teaching experience I had to find on my own–no research assistants as he was not the primary investigator on the research grants. From the outset he was honest, I do not want to work hard. Therefore, I took the initiative to ask him that I would like to be included in some of his research and publish, which we did one article. I tried to change doctoral advisors but one in particular told me we had overlapping interests, but not on the specific topic as my doctoral advisor. The end result I was not properly socialized in my PhD program—that is I was not part of a research team, who as a PhD student all you have to do is write a few lines along with your colleagues, who write another few lines, and your doctoral advisor puts all of you on their publications. By the time you have completed your PhD and looking for a job, you have 6 publications or more. In addition, your advisor knows the jobs, and most of my colleagues had a job in hand after passing their defenses. Answering cold call applications get you nowhere. Even in my humble position, all of my two teaching positions are because I knew the Chair of the Department. Within the education field there is this unspoken snobbery about those who receive an EdD (Doctorate of Education) and PhD. Other than Columbia and a few high brow universities, who offer only an EdD, the PhD is considered the best degree to land a professorship in a research university. With the exception of a friend of mine, who is a tenured elementary school teacher and whose advisor in a master’s program got her a position teaching on short term contracts at a local California state university. So what am I doing to market myself. Well, on the downside I have stopped as of last month applying for any teaching, lecture or tenure track position, I am concentrating on churning out journal publications. I attend educational conferences and present papers. I have given up on mentor programs at these educational conferences. I met an assistant professor now after receiving tenure has put our collaborative paper (that we presented at one educational conference) on the back burner to pursue research projects with her present doctoral students. So what did this mentor do for me, she offered me to present a paper to an ed conference she could not attend due to Storm Sandy. Then for a year I worked on her research beefing up a weak theoretical framework with even weaker findings. She chose the stronger of her findings to publish her own paper. Now she is saying that she has to reanalyze her findings and I should improve the theoretical framework. The truth being my part of the paper presented at last year’s conference was praised over her findings. Being taken advantage of for my research abilities but having no job is not the first time. In the Gaza Strip I worked for a prominent ngo, I edited twice manuscripts for psychiatrists to publish in community health publications and at the last moment they decided not to publish the manuscript or cut me out of co-authorship. My recommendation to those listening to my narrative, working with a research team is preferable, but if it doesn’t work out, publish your own work. You then have choice over your destiny. One more thing, the program advisor at USC always supported me during the tenure of my PhD program. At one of the ed conferences, learning that I did not have a job, she retorted, “oh, this is funny, all of our PhDs have found jobs”. I won’t let her deter me. My mother just passed away at 93 years and a half , ran our businesses, and still drove a car. Longevity on both of my parents’ side, do you think I will give up at 60 years old. No way! And employers should think the same way. My final advice, if you want to pursue a PhD, be prepared for a lot of disappointments. Bitchy colleagues are found not only in the corporate world, but academe. All political. If you cannot find a kindred spirit do it on your own, and when you succeed then just well, too polite to say it here, tell them to have a nice day!!!

Iris, Karen, thank you for your comments. I am 37 now but won’t be able to join a phd program until my 50s. Do you think I will be out of competition by that time?? Was it harder for you to be accepted due to the age??

I only applied to one institution, and I was accepted, so I’m not sure if it was hard or not. Doesn’t feel like it was. :) But I honestly don’t know if this particular institution reacted differently than others would have to my age or not.

Thank you all for your comments. I’ve started my PhD at 52 this Jan 2014. I have someone telling me that I can’t recoup the money I will spend on getting the PhD. This person doesn’t know my future, I have faith that I will make a contribution that will take care of me until I leave this life. Yet, I felt the need to google the question, how old is too old to economically benefit from a PhD. Art and Karen thank you both I believe it’s a balancing act of both your comments. Best Wishes! Pray for me that I will successfully reach my goals! I send the same prayers to all of you!

I think the question some might want to consider is “When is it not economically sound to get a PhD?” and the answer will depend on whether you will borrow money. I’m 52 and woke up to the fact that it’s too late for me because I would have to borrow the money to get the degree and not live long enough to pay it back (it would be in counseling psychology and the salaries are not high enough to make it work unless you start at 22). You need to look at several things here like 1) what’s the growth potential in the industry, 2) what are the salaries like, 3) when do you want to retire, 4) do you have a second income, 5) how much do you have to borrow, etc.

I will finish my PhD this year at 57. I have been fortunate to have had a full graduate assistantship at a flagship university. I have not experienced ageism and have been treated with respect. I am beginning the job search now, so I guess we’ll see how that goes, but I don’t feel worried. Everyone tells me I don’t look 57, but I find that annoying. I don’t think it should matter if I did. And frankly, I don’t think it does matter. I think I will get a job. I was a widow with young children for many years and when they were grown, I took the opportunity to pursue the PhD. I’m glad I did. Think positively, believe in yourself, and go out and make a contribution. Most age barriers are in our own minds.

Well, I think that admissions comittee will pay more attention at your skills to do research not to your age. I think by worrying about your age you are cutting yourself. Robert Morris started Phd at 30 and at 33 got a professorship position at MIT.

I’m starting my PhD at age 34 while wife starts hers at 32. Both our topics are substantial because of the work experience we’ve gained over the past 12 years since our undergrads.

The idea of people in their 20’s talking about (I) their age as too old (ii) their returns on investment (iii) employability as a gauge of whether to do a PhD or not (iv) the power admission committees seem to be afforded over applicant’s own future and fortunes is kinda disheartening. To me it speaks to a fundamentally broken system and a definite misinterpretation of the role of academia and indeed the PhD in society.

I digress. While 10 years ago it was just easier for us to get hot jobs and get wasted every night (I remember typing my masters thesis up in a night club over a mojito), I find that today we have a different level of commitment, maturity, insight and capability.

In summary, no, you are still very young, by all means do go foe your PhD.

I started my Ph.D. program at 40, in sociology. I think the benefits of advanced age (at least in Ph.D. terms) far outweigh the challenges. For one, I felt it was much easier to stay apart from much of the inter-departmental drama that tend to grip graduate students. For another, my various work experiences provided a trusty reserve of material to which I could connect theory and other headier ideas. These two advantages count for A LOT. And, for purposes of supporting my position (not bragging), I received a major government grant in support of my fieldwork which starts this month. I don’t think I would’ve have been a good candidate without all the experiences and (relative) maturity I brought to my studies. And I hardly think my enthusiasm was any less than my younger classmates. In fact, I think my advanced age bolstered my work ethic (no time to waste!).

This is all very depressing: “When are you too old for a PhD” http://t.co/T1ggjC29FH

When are you too old for a PhD? Then again, I once overheard about me, “he’s only 25 and he’s starting a PhD?” http://t.co/1SC8iAPVzv

On the other hand, I overheard a mother of a friend once saying “He’s only 25 and he’s starting a PhD?” I’m from the Philippines and I suppose this could be too young for them.

When are you too old for a PhD? | Chris Blattman http://t.co/G8DpsSkJRi

In my case I was 49 and 52 respectively when I made my attempts at admission to a PhD (on finding a framework for enabling entrepreneurship in a significant manner). Afte 21 years working for large corporates I changed careers and focused on enabling entrepreneurship. At the first attempt I was still working for a Corporate. At 52 I had spent 2 years on entrepreneurship and come up with an idea that I felt was worth doing a PhD for. Way I perceived it, a PhD at the right place with the right advisor would help bring the idea to fruition or lay good ground work at the least. It was more to get the idea to work, than for the letters after my name, or job prospects (I now work pro-bono). Both times I first asked the University if my age was an issue. I was assured it was not. The first time I got a polite form letter of rejection. The second time I was told that I was being rejected because my MBA was not in the same field my B.Engg (Mech). The fact that I did a MSc in ECommerce Management at the age of 42 when working full time and graduated Beta Gamma Sigma obviously meant nothing. I understand the arguments noted by others above (my wife has supervised some 20+ PhD’s as a Professor) but in my mind, I was not expecting anything more than a stipend and fees in return for which I would have worked flat out and, if my idea did prove useful, the University and society, would benefit. The only argument against (IMO), is that by choosing me, a younger candidate would lose his/her place. I think that is ageist. A person should be judged based on ability, capacity, passion, and the potential impact on society should the idea come to fruition. Point of reference. Both applications were to Universities in Europe (France and Switzerland).

I started my PhD at 32, graduated at 37. I agree with everything here. 1. What you did before matters. I got my PhD in Finance and had experience consulting for banks and working at an investment firm. 2. I didn’t notice any discrimination. I was probably on the upper end of my institutions placements over the past 5-10 years, but not the best. 3. What I lack in ‘enthusiasm’ I feel pretty certain I make up for in efficiency and savvy. I don’t work 12 or 14 hours days (been there done that) but I think I do work very efficiently.

If you can handle all the other stuff like relative poverty for 5+ years), the academic rigor (also shocked me; thought I was ready but had to get up to speed), and are ready for professors teaching you and advising you that are younger than you, then go for it. Just make sure you check the job market to make sure it is worth it – there is a lot of info on “should you get your PhD or not” by discipline which you should really pay attention to, especially as career switcher.

When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/DqAmSaAtNS #phdchat #phdforum I’m feeling too old at the moment

This post came in a great time. I`m defining whether to apply this year or to work one more year as a field coordinator of IE and apply next year instead. That way I`d be in my late 20s. I haven`t made up my mind, but this post gave me the courage to maybe postpone it to enjoy more my actual experience, hoping not to damage my chances of being accepted in the PhD ;)

Julian — the possibility that younger junior faculty provide even a second-order benefit to the institution all else equal seems unlikely to me. Even if the younger faculty will have a five-year longer career, what’s the probability that the hiring institution will capture that benefit? What’s the median length of a first academic job? With that age difference, we’re probably talking about a productivity difference only in old age. And the proposition that the younger professor will have a longer career is also dubious — my prior is both would burn out after the same number of years. And Chris didn’t say age was second-order in the context of junior hiring, he said it was second-order in the context of admissions. The two aren’t the same: with junior hiring we’re talking about the impact of age conditional on having produced quality research as opposed to just a quality grad school application.

Kate — why does your undergrad contemporaries’ success in academia at a younger age have any negative impact on your own potential success?

I began mine at 34. Pros: I knew I wanted to do it, it’s fun hanging round with people 10 years younger, you might have some savings to help with the costs. Cons: I’d forgotten all academic skills (I was quite good at this stuff when I did my MPhil, really struggle now), hanging round with people 10 years younger can make you feel quite old. Job prospects maybe depend on whether you want to stay in academia. I think I’ve perhaps missed the boat for an academic career, esp as a couple of undergraduate contemporaries have recently become professors.

Well, the bright side is that in olympic gymnastics 28 is very old @cblatts some hard data on PhdS http://t.co/gu7PGDW9Kf

When are you too old for a PhD? (I started mine at 33 bit late but worth it) http://t.co/8utg9dvjEn

Arturo – I think the reason would be, as Nancy alludes to above, that they want to be associated with someone who becomes as prominent as possible, which is partly about total quantity of work (and more opportunities to write the quintessential home-run paper). But as Chris says, this is second-order at best and not worth worrying about I think. Two examples I know of who started their PhDs late but have been very successful are Terry Odean (berkeley finance) and Gary Charness (UCSB experimental econ).

The response ignores the claim “it is harder to you to get a job when you graduate” if you’re more than 32 years old upon finishing your PhD (projecting 5-6 years for completion). I can’t think of any good reason why junior hiring committees would consistently discriminate against candidate in their mid-30s to hire candidates in their mid-20s, but please correct me if I’m wrong.

@cblatts Reassuring to know I’m not on a fool’s errand (I’m 29, starting PhD this fall)

RT @cblatts: When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/0dyfOthET9

They let me in at 30–lower expected lifetime returns but well worth it! RT @cblatts: When are you too old for a PhD? http://t.co/tXH6GG4UhW

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Entering ph.d. program from bachelor's in any degree field (pathway 1a).

Courses: 96 hours beyond B.S.

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Note: The hour requirements reflected in these degree plans represent the minimum departmental requirements. Students may elect to take more courses and/or the student’s committee or chair may require more hours than what is listed on these degree plans.

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The double suit is a quick-change suit for reacting to variations in temperature, and we’ve been hearing tales of its appearances on the world’s highest mountains.

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M.Degree 100 K Down Sleeping Bag

An astonishingly light bag. For the weight it can't be beaten. ‘Lightest in test’.

Lightweight Sleeping Bags Sizes

The measurements in the tables below are personal body measurements.

• PHD 'K Series': Ultimate warmth / weight performance.
• Unique 1000 fillpower Goose Down
• Sheer-light 7X fabric throughout
• Box-wall construction on the top for maximum loft
• Stitch through construction on the base for minimum weight
• Pack size†: 13 x 21cm
• Oval footpiece: fits naturally to feet and avoids pressure
• Adjustable hood draws up close around head
• Stuff sac & mesh storage bag supplied
• Colour: Red or Black
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• Full zip (left or right)
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† Please note:  we make our stuff sacs big enough to allow fairly easy stuffing rather than reducing the bag to the tightest minimum.

‡Please note: The optional waterproof Dri-LX outer provides an extra seam-sealed outer shell to the bag. While a shelled sleeping bag is not designed to be used alone in heavy rain (the hood area is open to the elements) the shell does protect the bag when it is used outdoors without a tent.

* For all length and width options we change the amount of downfill to keep the warmth (TOT) the same.

Description:

Ultralight 7x fabric (weight: 22 gsm).

7X is our new sheer-light 7 denier fabric. An exquisitely fine rip-stop nylon, 7X is incredibly light, highly wind-resistant and has first-rate down proofing. This fabric helps us create the very lightest of gear in the PHD range. Of course the lighter the fabric the lighter the sleeping bag or down clothing, and the less space it takes up in your rucksack. This fabric is so light it actually helps to allow even greater lofting of the down too.

Water-resistant HyperShell fabric (weight: 28 gsm)

HyperShell is PHD’s exceptionally lightweight waterproof coated fabric. This remarkable ripstop nylon provides complete windblock and good water resistance at a breath-taking weight (28 gsm). HyperShell protects the down from condensation drips found typically in tents, tarps and snow-holes, but its very low weight allows greater lofting of the down and a smaller pack size. Hydrostatic head: 1000mm.

Note: unlike some other so-called 'proofed' fabrics, HyperShell does not rely solely on a DWR (durable water repellent) coating. Although it has a DWR coating, more importantly it has a breathable and permanent PU coating applied on the underside of the fabric that cannot be abraded through daily use, so performance is maintained over many years.

For the lightest and smallest pack a sleeping bag without any zips is king, but for those with warm feet, or even race blisters, a foot zip can be more than just a little luxury. Adding only 10-12g to the total weight of the bag, the foot zip is the ultralight route to comfort.

Dri-LX (weight: 64 gsm)

At just 64gsm, Dri-LX is our lightest 2-layer breathable waterproof rip-stop nylon fabric. Its remarkably low weight not only makes for a lighter load, but also reduces pack size. Its excellent waterproofing qualities are in part due to how it can be taped at the seams to create a waterproof shell for sleeping bags and clothing.

Sleeping bag zips

• No zip: The standard design on our lightest bags with open hoods. The simplest/lightest system which is a must for adventure racers. Up to 140gm (5oz) lighter than a full zip with draft tube.
• Full zips: Full zip bags ventilate well, so they can be used over a wider range of temperatures.
• Short zips: Short zips are lighter and pack smaller than full zips. A short zip & draft tube is up to 85gm (3oz) lighter than the full version.
• Our full briefing on sleeping bag zips.

1000 fillpower down

This rarest of all downs we reserve for the K Series. European goose down of unique quality. 1000 provides the highest warmth-for-weight performance possible from down. More on our down insulation .

Construction

"An astonishingly light bag. For the weight it can’t be beaten. ‘Lightest in test’.” —TGO Magazine

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