argumentative essay about haircut policy

Haircut Policy Research Paper

One of the rules and regulations in the school is the haircut policy. Government makes and implemented laws and policy to ensure the safety of every students. They implemented School policies that can reach a long term goals in protecting students life inside the school grounds . Haircut policy in school is very important because it is one policy that can build discipline among students. The Department of Education (DepEd) has a long-standing policy that governs good grooming. This includes prescribing a so-called proper haircut for male pupils in both private and public schools “the prescribed haircut for boys is at least one inch above the ear and three inches above the collar line.” (Quijano , 2011). Barber’s Cut is the

The Natural Hair Movement Essay

There has been a notable amount of conversation on the internet on the rebirth of the natural hair movement. Cherise Luter (2014) states that despite afros and the natural hair movement not being a new concept (i.e. the Black Power Movement), it has gone under what she calls a “refreshing change”. Furthermore, what used to be “I’m black and I’m proud”, has been replaced with “I’m me and I’m proud” (Luter 2016). So, what is the natural hair movement? It is defined as a movement where black women decide to not conform to the social norms of chemically altering their hair and wearing it in its natural, kinky, or curled state (Joignot 2015). The movement could also be considered as an outlet for black women to display their racial and cultural pride or to articulate their “political position (Brown 2014:297). However, simply the terminology “movement” is something that should be shocking to many. There is a great amount of historical context behind the continuous influence Eurocentric beauty ideals have had on black women for centuries. According to Nadia Brown (2014), Black natural hair throughout history has proven to be recognized as “either unintended or intended personal and political statements” (298). the beauty standard in Western society which praises European hair textures, has influenced many black women to be critical of other black women who choose to chemically straighten their hair, accusing them of being subservient to the dominant and pervasive racist

Shaving and Facial Hair Essay

Being in the army, means you are part of a team. Being part of a team means you have to rely on other people, and other people have to rely on you. If you aren't being a team player then you can let the team and your battle buddies down. By not shaving, you are letting your battle buddies and team down. The army is based on uniformity and cleanliness. When you don't shave you begin to expire that idea.

Haircut Essay

Pv2 Johnny. Correctional Essay on Importance of meeting the standards set by AR 670-1. A soldier is a professional and an expert at all times, Because of this his uniform haircut and general hygiene is held to a professional standard. AR 670-1 is the ruling of this standard in which every soldier must uphold to. A soldier is measured by his/her ability to do his job successfully, tactfully, and professionally. The key to doing a job as a professional is a professional appearance, none know this as much as the Army. In the Army, the regulation that dictates what to look like while on duty is the AR 670-1; this provides an SOP on what to wear and how to groom for both males and females alike. When a job is done for the Army, the soldier is

Cosmetology School Research Paper

Although I cannot say that I have always known what I wanted to do with my life, I have always had a love and passion for hair, nails, makeup, and really anything to do with beauty. Between four sisters, friends, slumber parties, and formals, I have found my love for beauty and have obtained a large amount of practice. As a result of my experiences, my desire for cosmetology has brought me to Paul Mitchell the school. I have decided to attend Paul Mitchell because this school can help further my future education in cosmetology. I am confident that it is the perfect place for me, it will help me achieve my future goals and dreams, and I believe that I am a good student for this school.

Hair In The 1920s Essay

Hair in the 1910s became more fitted to the head and it started to be cut shorter. The hair was also seen in a bun. Pin seen were long and held the larger hats in place. The pins would have flowers made from ivory, enamel, leather and jet on them and other gems were also seen. Pins were made from metals such as steal and gold. Over the sharp end of the pin, a cap would be put on to provide protection when they were in the hair. World War 1 led to women being viewed differently and in 1918 women were able to vote.

When thinking about opening a salon you should learn about all the cosmetology schools in your area. In bigger towns and cities there should be a few of them so you should get in contact with all of them. Leaving any of them out might ruin your chance for new employees and business that could expand your salon and spa even more. If you are opening a salon and spa near the school you went to you might already have connections with the teachers and administration there, so it would be a good place to reach out to first. Schools often like it when the salon reaches out to them first because teachers often call multiple salons to find out recent trends and price lists but get no response back. It is always good to keep in contact with all of the instructors from the cosmetology schools just incase they have questions about local

Hair Analysis Essay

3 samples of hair are picked from 3 suspects that maybe the murderer of Mr.Mowder. Another sample of hair was extracted from the crime scene left by the killer. Under the microscope, 4 samples of hair were observed. Sample A or Schwab’s hair sample was light brown, wide, had a presence of medulla, and dark shadings on both sides of the hair. Sample B or Clark’s hair was darker, thinner than Suspect A’s, and still had presence of medulla.The shading was uneven on the sides. Sample C or Klotz’s hair was light blonde or grey, wide, had no presence of medulla, and no shading. Finally the hair sample found on the body of Mr.Mowder was light brown, wide, had presence of medulla, and dark shading on the sides. Sample C was widely different from the other hair samples due to its color. Samples B, C and the victim hair are more similar due to it’s

Rushawn Haircut Research Paper

Across America, there is a debate about getting a embarrassment should not be used as an punishment, because a boy named Rushawn was being mean to his classmates, and his grades was going down. Considering both sides of the debate, Rushawn's parents decided to take him to a barber shop and get the grandpa cut.

African American Hair Research Paper

Women believe hair is an essential part of life. Different races have different hair textures and styles majority of the style comes with stereotypes. Women believe hair is a way of bringing out their personality or raising their self-esteem In the African American population hair is controversial topic. Some embrace the natural beauty of hair while others enhance it with more chemicals, weaves, locks and braids. African American hair has started issues within the corporate workplace. This paper explains how African American women’s natural hair is viewed in the corporate

Essay Analysis of Hair

The essay Hair written by Maria Alderich, is an analysis of women during the 1950’s need to conform, rebel, or fit in to societies social standards and the inner conflict it caused in women’s identity. The essay is Alderich’s firsthand account of the females in her immediate family and how they use their hair styles to define themselves and represent their self-identity.

Natural Hair Club Research Paper

As a senior in highschool, one of my future goals is to become either a doctor or an administrator in health sciences. As long as I can remember, I had a fascination with animal documentaries when Animal Planet was very popular. However, then in high school, I was introduced to the Human Body, and it fascinated more than ever. I want to become a doctor because I have the drive to save other people’s lives.

Alopecia Research Paper

When your child is diagnosed with alopecia, you probably have scoured the web for relevant information about the disease. Even if you know everything you know about hair loss, nerve-wracking to meet this guy has such a serious topic. The first step is to have a chat child will learn how to think through. How old is your child? O when that day will be the most open to talk to? Style of speaking for him or her what to rage around? Which ones to help him or her to stay calm and collected?

Facial Hair Essay

When it comes to facial hair in our school, for some reasoning outside the realm of even our principal, the issue is a heinous act punishable to the fullest extent. Facial hair is a form of self expression and self identification in a young man’s life. When we see half the male population, and the ones we look up to have facial hair. It becomes a social construct in our lives that in essence affects how we see ourselves. It can create a self confidence in one who before had none. With this in mind our school has enforced holistic regulations upon the male gender that take away self-expression and infract upon our God given right to present ourselves as we see fit. When a school takes this away from you it turns from being unethical to an

Haircut Saga Case Study

Delving into the Trinity Grammar haircut saga, during the crisis phase, there are several concerns which enraged the stakeholders, namely the School Council’s decision to sack Brown, its passive attitude, and empty promises. While the trigger event was unstable, the suddenness and negativity impacted attribution. Using the three attribution dimension, the Trinity Grammar haircut saga dons a high personal control, low external control, and a locus in the actor which could strengthen the perception of intentional actions by the School Council (Coombs 2004, p. 268). To interpret the situation, crisis communicators should resort to the assessment of crisis type in order to correctly specify the emphasis of evaluation (Druckman, cited in Coombs 2004, p. 269). Brown’s dismissal falls under the ‘challenges’ crisis type in the accidental crisis cluster, for the stakeholders are not convinced that Trinity Grammar is operating in an

Persuasive Essay On Hairstyles

At the moment I ask myself, why are these schools dictating these kids hairstyles? Why can’t a boy dye his hair pink or have his hair over his collar, there is no real reason for this. You should not be able to dictate these different hairstyles for the exact reason that we have our amendments and laws that give us the freedom we rightly deserve. Also, there are some boys who might have their hair long and you call that a violation, there is nothing wrong with a boy having his hair long. You, judging someone with long hair is like judging someone with curly hair, they both are just natural hairstyles.

Why Policies about Hair Matter for Educational Equality

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My research explores how women of color make decisions about hair styling. Across countries and societies, legacies of slavery, colonialism, and the Civil Rights movement continue to influence the perception of afro-textured hair. Moreover, prejudicial views can adversely influence the social positions of African-American women in areas such as income, housing or employment markets . Schools have a special responsibility to actively address these issues, I argue, because racial biases are often rooted in reactions to people’s appearance.

What Explains Reactions to Afro-Textured Hair?

For African American women, stereotypes about “good hair” versus “bad hair” can be traced all the way back to distinctions between house slaves with relatively higher social stature and field slaves with low social stature. To this day, the social status of women can be influenced by whether they are perceived to have “good hair,” that is, sleek or wavy hair that falls and “flows in the wind.” “Bad hair,” in contrast, can be a source of shame and frustration. Many women experience social pressure from their family and peers to adhere to the dominant beauty ideal of long, straight hair -- either by chemically relaxing their own hair or by wearing weaves or wigs that hide their hair’s natural texture.

Across countries and societies, women of color attest to the prejudice and stereotypes associated with particular hairstyles. The meaning of the Afro, for instance, is inextricably linked to the Civil Rights Movement and the iconic image of civil rights activist Angela Davis. The Afro is thus seen as the assertion of a strong Black identity, sometimes evoking the stereotype of the “angry-radical-revolutionary-Black woman.” In contrast, dreadlocks are at times associated with crime and deviance, and evoking the stereotype of the weed-smoking Rastafari. To avoid negative stereotyping and social exclusion, many women refrain from wearing hairstyles suitable to the texture of their hair, even if such styles feel rooted in their cultural and ethnic heritage.

Adopting straight hairstyles, whether they feel comfortable or not, may be seen as a way to improve women’s chances in the job and dating market. In fact, research looking at skin color has found that light-skinned women fare significantly better with regards to educational attainment, employment status, and the social status of their spouse compared to dark-skinned women. My research demonstrates that similar effects exist for hair texture. Furthermore, research has shown that White women exhibit biases toward afro-textured hair – which they tend to regard as less beautiful, less attractive, and less professional than straight-textured hair.

Taken together, these findings highlight the subtle but pervasive ways in which hair issues complicate the lives and claims to equal rights of African-American women. The effects can show up in implicit as well as explicit ways. In one illustrative 2016 example, 15-year-old Ashanti Scott was subject to a new dress code at Butler Traditional High School banning “dreadlocks, cornrolls, twists, mohawks” (sic), and required “afros [be] no more than two inches in length.” Although the Butler school administration suspended the policy shortly after complaints began to flood in via social media, this story is far from isolated. In the U.S. educational system, students of color are frequently subject to unfair and harmful rules policing their personal appearance.

Physical and Psychological Costs

My work explores not only the sources of policies policing appearance in racially unfair ways; I also examine the physical and psychological costs of such policies. First, my research shows that the perceived need to straighten hair can impose significant physical and psychological costs. Secondly, many hairstyling options available to women of color, including braiding styles and weaves, are associated with the risk of permanent scalp issues or hair loss. Lastly, the constant need to manage their appearance and identity undermines women’s confidence and self-esteem. In fact, I have heard from some women who admitted to calling in sick and refusing to leave their house, if their hair was not perfectly straight on a particular day.

In contrast, women who were encouraged to embrace their cultural and ethnic heritage and take pride in their hair as well as skin color were more likely to develop a positive self-image from an early age. These women not only avoided bodily harms such as burnt scalps, but were also more likely to develop positive self-esteem. In addition, these women were less likely to assume their natural hair texture could be a barrier to educational or career success.

Ways to Achieve and Teach Equal Rights

My findings emphasize the need to address the social and historical factors underlying the policing of hair in schools, in order to treat the next generations more fairly, and to reduce the risk for physical and psychological injuries stemming from discriminatory school policies and dress codes. Crucially, teachers and school administrators are responsible for making choices that eliminate discrimination in the education of the next generation of citizens. Because people’s reactions to each other’s appearance is often the first place where racial discrimination finds expression, they should be especially mindful of the ways dress-codes and other policies about personal appearance can unfairly impact students and faculty of color.

Centralized interventions are not always the best way to spark change and broader. The use of social media can be highly effective. With her mother’s support, Ashanti Scott chose to challenge her school’s hair policy in social media – and the spread of her message led to a widespread condemnation and a swift reversal in school policy. Other efforts can include the use of parent committees to suggest appropriate schools-wide standards. And official interventions can produce shifts in school dress codes, as happened through a letter from the Massachusetts Attorney General’s office condemning Mystic Valley Regional Charter School in Malden for expelling students because their hair did not comply with discriminatory dress-codes. Finally, teachers and administrators may need to learn more about the history of Black hair and the physical and psychological injuries African-American women often suffer as they struggle to meet unfair standards of beauty. In other words, diversity teaching for and by teachers should not only focus on the variety of skin tones but should also include lessons on other outward reflections of racial identity such as hair textures and styles.

Brief prepared as Yale Fox International Fellow 2017-2018, Yale University.

Read more in Johanna Lukate, ““Blackness Disrupts my Germanness: On Embodiedment and Questions of Identity and Belonging Among Women of Colour in Germany,” in To Exist is to Resists: Black Feminism in Europe, edited by Akwugo Emejulu and Francesca Sobande (Pluto Press, forthcoming).

States and cities are banning hair discrimination. Here’s how that’s affecting schools.

In 2017, a charter school outside Boston issued multiple detentions to black 15-year-old girls who wore their hair in braided extensions, saying the hairstyle violated the dress code.

In 2018, a referee in New Jersey forced a 16-year-old mixed-race wrestler to cut his dreadlocks or forfeit his match.

And in 2019, a public elementary school in suburban Atlanta displayed several photos of black children, including girls with braids, to illustrate “inappropriate” haircuts.

Now, a wave of new laws means millions of students have new protections against discrimination if they wear their hair in styles like these. The laws all look to prevent black children and adults from facing negative consequences for how they wear their hair at school and work. And while most are too new to have made an impact yet, advocates hope they will prompt more changes to school dress codes and discipline policies.

“They’re particularly meaningful because black women and girls are being penalized for the way that hair literally grows out of our heads,” said Jade Magnus Ogunnaike, a campaign director at Color Of Change, a nonprofit civil rights group that advocates for these laws.

“If you’re suspended from school because of the way that you wear your hair, how are you supposed to have faith or confidence in your school, and that the staff and the institution cares about you?”

In just the last year, California , New York and New Jersey have passed laws banning discrimination based on hair styles or textures that are commonly associated with a person’s race or nationality. New York City , Cincinnati , and Montgomery County, Maryland have issued their own bans.

That group looks likely to grow. Thirteen additional states and the city of Baltimore are considering similar laws, according to the coalition tracking the effort, while Sen. Cory Booker of New Jersey recently introduced a federal bill to outlaw hair discrimination, pointing to the case of the New Jersey high school wrestler.

Meanwhile, the nation’s largest teachers union has also called on educators to push for more inclusive school hair policies in their districts, even if a law hasn’t yet passed in their state.

“Some states, but not enough, have banned hair discrimination — an important step in protecting students against implicit and explicit bias,” the National Education Association wrote on its Twitter account this fall.

Black students being disciplined for how they wear their hair have fueled debates for years about the amount of control schools should be able to exert over their students — particularly students of color.

Some schools have argued that dress codes are a critical component of school culture, and certain hairstyles or headwraps are distracting, unprofessional, or promote gangs or prison culture. Increasingly, students have pushed back, arguing that such definitions of professionalism are rooted in racism.

Aundrey Page grappled with this issue when he became the principal of a KIPP high school in San Francisco last summer.

Before Page started his new job, he interviewed students, asking what they liked about their school and what they wanted to see changed. Several black female students told him they wanted to be able to wear headwraps and headscarves in class, so Page made that change as part of a larger effort to relax the school’s dress code .

He sees the changes as “intertwined and interrelated” with the work he’s done at KIPP and his own school to shift toward more restorative and less punitive discipline.

“I think it’s important for us, as a society, that we continue to look at ourselves in the mirror and think about, in what ways have we used small things like dress code to keep people from having equitable access to opportunity?” Page said. “How much of this is anti-blackness, or systemic racism, and trying to get our students to fit a certain mold?”

Elsewhere, dress codes forbidding headscarves, headwraps, and durags have prompted protests by black parents and students , who often wear these styles to protect their hair or to express black cultural pride.

In 2018, for example, students at Success Academy’s high school in New York City protested when the charter school cracked down on wearing headscarves and headwraps.

“It is a part of our culture to wear headwraps and it helps us take care of our natural hair, which is like kinky and curly and not the same as most of our teachers,” one student told Chalkbeat at the time.

Most of the new bans, which apply to all public schools (and to private schools in some places), are written to protect hairstyles commonly worn by black people and mention styles like Afros, braids, twists, and dreadlocks, or locs.

Others go further. Guidance put out by New Jersey and New York City includes a long list of protected hairstyles, including fades; a top official with the agency charged with enforcing New York City’s guidance said that would include when students have lines shaved into their fades, a common hairstyle that has led black students to be disciplined in schools across the country.

New York City’s guidance also explicitly protects “covering one’s hair with a headscarf or wrap,” something other cities and states do not mention.

“We tried to be as inclusive as possible about the range of styles that are associated with black culture,” said Brittny Saunders, the deputy commissioner for the city’s human rights commission. “We wanted to have guidance that’s reflective of the sorts of experience with discrimination and harassment that students were having.”

(Success Academy’s high school dress code still prohibits durags, according to the handbook posted on its website . A Success Academy spokesperson did not respond to requests for comment.)

Advocates see these laws as part of a broader push to reduce racial disparities in how students are disciplined at school. Research has shown that black girls face disproportionate discipline for low-level offenses like dress code violations.

And some say the laws on the books don’t go far enough and want to see changes — especially as more than a dozen other states look to pass similar legislation.

As it’s written, Massachusetts’ proposed law would exempt private religious schools, notes Sean Kealy, an associate professor of law at Boston University who spent a semester reviewing these laws with his students.

That’s also been true in other cities and states, which has led to pushback in places like San Diego and New York City . In some cases, no private schools have to comply.

Kealy and the dean of Boston University’s law school, Angela Onwuachi-Willig, plan to ask the Massachusetts bill’s sponsor to narrow the exemption for religious entities to apply only when a particular hairstyle is required by a religion. The Catholic Church doesn’t have specific hair requirements, for example, so if a ban passes, they want Catholic schools to have to follow the rules.

“We want to close all the loopholes,” Onwuachi-Willig said.

Onwuachi-Willig and Kealy also want guidance to be issued to school administrators and for students to be informed of their rights. So far, some state education agencies haven’t taken an active role in spreading the word about the new laws.

When officials at California and New York State’s departments of education were asked what they’d done to help schools follow their state’s new hair discrimination bans, officials pointed to the general discrimination complaint procedures online.

New Jersey’s education department pointed to guidance issued by the state’s attorney general’s office after an investigation into the case of the high school wrestler who was forced to cut off his locs. The state’s agreement says all officials and staff involved in New Jersey high school athletics must receive implicit bias training.

What the new laws do offer is a way for students and their families to file formal complaints if they experience this kind of discrimination. But it’s hard to judge their impact so far.

New York City’s ban on hair discrimination, issued nearly a year ago, has been around the longest. Officials there are investigating discrimination complaints, but none that originated at schools, though the city agency that enforces the ban has conducted trainings at schools.

Still, parents like Erika Paggett see these laws as an important step. In 2018, when Paggett’s son was in eighth grade, he was given an in-school suspension by his Fresno, California middle school for having a few lines shaved into his hair , a style school officials said was distracting.

Paggett tried to resolve the issue with administrators, who insisted her son get his hair re-cut to end the suspension. She eventually posted an open letter about the incident on social media, which caught the eye of the local ACLU.

Eventually, the district changed its dress code. Paggett said she was glad to see the policy overhauled and to see California pass a law to protect other students, but it doesn’t erase what happened to her son.

“To tell a student that something natural about them is bad, or a crime, or something that they deserve to be punished for, it has a lasting impact on how they see themselves,” she said. “I wish we never experienced that.”

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Philippine Schools’ Haircut Policy: Effective? Argumentative Essay

The standard haircut policy for most schools and universities in the Philippines is 2 x 3 or better known as “barber’s cut”. To give you a clear picture, the hair is cut two inches shaved on the sides, and three inches shaved on the back. Some schools that implement such policy are Aquinas School, St. Andrew’s School, and Don Bosco Technical Institute. Like every other policy, haircut policy applies to a certain category of people; males only. By regularly having a haircut, the students keep in mind that they have something to accomplish at a certain time every month.

That is the disciple that the school administrators emphasize. In my opinion, the 2 x 3 haircut policy is not necessary for implementation in schools because it has no effect or contribution to a student’s learning. “The barber’s cut looks neat and clean, according to the administration of the schools that implement the policy. It makes the student look decent and respectable. Fine young men are how male students with such hair style are treated. It’s quite hygienic as well because the possibility of messing up the hair through over-styling is removed.

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It is also easy to groom this hair style, so it saves students time. ” In schools, where we are taught right Christian values, ironically is the same place where being judgmental is inevitable. Just because one has longer hair than the prescribed, it doesn’t make him any less of a person. One can also look neat and presentable by sporting a hairstyle without resorting to this “white side wall” cut. Take for instance the hairstyle of local celebrity, Robi Domingo. He managed to graduate with flying colors in Ateneo de Manila University!

Pardon my ignorance, but I cannot understand what is so time consuming with styling male’s hairstyle when you can only finger combed a shorter hair? Isn’t styling ladies long shoulder length hair, more tedious than male’s ear-line hairstyle? How come the policy only applies to male then? Everyone wants to look good. I certainly want to look good. But by sporting a barber’s cut, how can I? Other people aren’t comfortable with it either. Also, there are other ways to discipline students other than the implementation of this haircut policy. Perhaps an even stricter policy on cleanliness would be more accepted by everybody.

Additionally, either having hair cut short or growing it long won’t have any effect on a student’s learning in school. So, why do we need to abide by such rule? It’s everybody’s right to choose how he or she should look. Forcing a student to look different from how he would like to, has a considerable effect on his confidence and self-esteem, which can then affect his performance in school. Lack of self-esteem can cause depression, and depression hinders performance. It is a shallow reason to show unsatisfactory performance in school just because of the lack of self-esteem due to barber’s cut.

Schools should probably change it to a policy that gives them freedom regarding hair styles but mirrors the parameters of decency together with it. As long as the student looks decent and neat with the hair style he prefers, it should be allowed. Wouldn’t it be fairer if we have freedom on how we want to look? We have our own preferences on how we want to look. All of us want to appear the best we can, because it shows that you care for yourself. It’s a way to express who we are, and we shouldn’t be hindered from showing others our individuality.

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argumentative essay about haircut policy

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Eliminating Anti-Black Hair Policies at School

Moving away from dress codes that ban natural Black hairstyles such as Afros and locs fosters a more inclusive community.

For the last two years, educators all over the country have expressed an interest in creating schools that are genuinely inclusive. We recognize that students who experience a sense of belonging at school have greater levels of emotional wellness and academic achievement. Yet, as of today, a search for hair discrimination in schools results in more than 30 million hits. There are simply too many examples of Black children’s academic opportunities being impacted by their hair.

There have even been laws enacted to end hair discrimination in schools and workplaces in response to this growing concern. The CROWN (Creating a Respectful and Open World for Natural Hair) Act , for example, has been signed into law in 19 states and counting. So, how can school leaders eliminate discriminatory hair policies and be identity affirming as it relates to Black hair?

4 Ways School Administrators Can End Anti-Black Hair Policies

1. Improve school culture. Numerous studies have shown that the majority of Black girls and some Black boys have dealt with hair-related harassment, teasing, or bullying at school. Administrators can begin to turn this around by doing the following:

Encouraging teachers to have students take a deep dive into hair discrimination. Hearing students’ thoughts on the issue can provide a lot of insight. When I was an eighth-grade English teacher, we listened to Solange Knowles’s “ Don’t Touch My Hair ,” read the lyrics, and explored the relationship between our hair and our identity. We all learned from each other during the discussions and related writing assignments.
Always addressing community members’ biased or unkind comments about Black hair. Whether the offense is deliberate or unintentional, it’s a teachable moment for addressing the larger implications of bias.
Empowering students to critically review school dress code policies, especially those that are related to hair. Young people enjoy the idea of being involved in creating or dismantling rules, and it serves as an organic lesson about policy-making and revision.

2. Enhance representation. Representation creates opportunities for all students to embrace and celebrate Black hair. This morning I was scrolling on Instagram and saw a repost from @kabee_315, a Black teacher. The caption read as follows: “After seeing one of my kids crying because one of the boys made fun of her hair, I was reminded of a picture of a teacher who copied her student’s hairstyle for a similar reason. The next day I brought my supplies to school and copied her hairstyle… We had a class conversation about how our words and actions impact each other.”

This is one of many examples of how representation is an incredibly powerful force for children. Books we choose to teach, historical and current-day figures we talk about, images we display throughout the school, and guests we invite to speak at assemblies all provide opportunities to increase representation and create an identity-affirming setting that benefits all students.

3. Acknowledge bias. At the root of race-based hair discrimination are systemic racism and bias. This contributes to the idea that Black hair cannot be both natural and professional.

Start by acknowledging bias in your hair preferences, and encourage others to do the same. Reading the Perception Institute’s ”Good Hair“ study is a great place to start.

4. Evaluate dress codes. During a study I conducted in 2020 , my research partner and I randomly selected and audited dress codes at schools across the country. Around 70 percent of them mentioned hair, 20 percent forbade students to wear their hair in Afros, and around 20 percent forbade students to wear their hair in braids.

Here are two critical questions we can ask ourselves about our school’s dress code policies:

What is the purpose of this rule? Often we rationalize dress code policies by saying that they prevent distraction. What message are we perpetuating by telling Black children that their hair is a distraction?
Are Black students disproportionately impacted by this policy? According to the model policy from the Dignity in Schools Campaign , dress codes prohibiting “braids, locs, beads, Afros, Afro-puffs, weaves, extensions, hair worn naturally,” target Black children and faculty.

Hair discrimination isn’t about aesthetics. There are lots of related topics you can explore to help you understand the issue .

NAACP Resolution: Hair Discrimination Is Race Discrimination
“Black Girls’ Identities and Resistance”
“For Black students, unfairly harsh discipline can lead to lower grades”
“When Black Women Used Hair Braids to Escape Slavery”

Even though we’re talking about anti-Black hair policies, dress codes and all elements of school culture should also be critically assessed periodically to determine the impact on all marginalized groups, such as other people of color, people who are female-identifying, those who are gender-expansive, or those who are part of a religious minority. Our ongoing and concerted efforts will go a long way toward providing identity-affirming spaces for all members of our school communities.

Proper Haircut In School Essay

This sample paper on Proper Haircut In School Essay offers a framework of relevant facts based on the recent research in the field. Read the introductory part, body and conclusion of the paper below.

The hair style of high school students has been a controversial issue for many years. The prescribed plain short hair may look tidy, but the insistence on the hair length below the ear lobe in the case of girl students, which is fixed at one centimeter or at most two, is quite unnecessary.

Until recently, the Mayor of Tainan had tried to persuade the Ministry of Education to give the high schoolers the carte blanche to determine their own hair styles. It is difficult for us to say if the idea is right or wrong.So far as I am concerned, problems of the young are not confined to such a small matter as hair style; what matters is the reinforcement of the students’ moral consciousness, the way they should behave, and the like.

The length of their hair or whether they have the right to give it a permanent wave is relatively unimportant. Cleanness and neatness is what really matters. There is hardly anything that stays unchanged all the time. Why doesn’t the concerned authority reconsider this hair business? Maybe the bickerings that sour the relations between the military instructors and their students will therefore be gone.By the way, to improve one’s appearance is nothing wrong, is it? We all expect to see a new look of the young.

Proficient in: Beauty

“ Very organized ,I enjoyed and Loved every bit of our professional interaction ”

Maybe a change in the concerned authority’s policy toward the high schoolers’ hair style will bring this about. {2} In my opinion the problem of the high schoolers’ hair style has been overemphasized. So far as I know, this problem has been existing for quite a long time and possibly in our country alone. High school students are supposed to study hard, but it seems that few care what they really want. I just graduated from high school this year.While in high school I didn’t care much about my hair style, but whenever the school checked to see if we had had our hair cut I always felt a little annoyed. If anyone forgot to have his hair cut to the required standard, he was sure to be reprimanded or even punished. I hope our high school can show a greater interest in helping students cultivate their minds than in picking holes in their hair. Once in a while our society seems to be interested in this problem too, but it is a pity that the students’ own view in this matter is rarely consulted.That is why students often quarrel with their teachers, and this mutual misunderstanding is often detrimental to the students themselves. Most high school students do not really care what their hair style is; what they beef about is perhaps the constant check on their hair length. Why doesn’t the Ministry of Education release high school students from this particular pressure? No wonder more and more youngsters in school are inclined to commit offenses. It is time to try and keep our educational house in order. 3} It is surprising that high school students’ hair style should become a controversial subjects. As a matter of fact, this is not a serious problem, because in my opinion high school students should not in the first place spend too much time on hair care. Time is money. The most important thing for high school students to keep in mind is to do well in school and be well prepared for the college entrance examinations. Since the admission rate of college aspirants is low, high school students should make more of an effort to prepare for it.Furthermore, the period of restricted hair length is only from junior to senior high school; if the junior high school students find nothing wrong with their hair style, why should the senior high school students take exception to it? So my conclusion is this: though it is right for the concerned authorities to relax the restrictions imposed on high schoolers’ hair style in a reasonable way, the students themselves should also realize that their hair style is nothing important, that when they are graduated such restrictions on their hair will automatically become null and void.Although I am a college student now, my memory of my high school days is still fresh. As a high school student I did not care about my hair style; on the contrary, I was thankful to the uniform hair style because I could thus save much time as well as money in paying less attention to my hair. In a word, there is really no need to bother about one’s hair, especially if you are just a student. If one’s hair is compared to a tree and one’s period of education to a river, then we can see that the tree will keep growing new leaves while the river, if it ever flows, will never flow back.Youth is itself a kind of beauty, an asset, so I don’t think a student’s hair will in any way detract from this beauty. {4} The hair style of high school students was once an interesting subject in the newspaper. Almost all the educators, top-ranking government officials and teachers said that we high school students should not pick on the prescribed hair style of ours. According to them, the sole duty of a student’s was to study and study and the inner part of the head was more important than the hair that covers the scalp.Despite what they said, I still don’t like hair style imposed on us high school students. I isn’t beautiful and it is unnatural. It looks like some dry dark grass on a boy student’s head and a very small black hat on a girl student’s. I am tired of having my hair cut every four weeks, yet I am obliged to do that because the military instructor so frequently inspects the hair style of every student. To me hair style is strictly a personal matter. I like to have my hair a little longer and be spared the trouble of having it cut every so often.We students labor under so many rules in school and we are taught to obey all of them. I think a uniform plain hair style is not necessary at all. Why can’t we do as we like? We are eager to see the time when we are free to choose our own hair styles in our post-high school days. {5} Closely following my graduation from junior high school in 1975 I entered a college to major in Chemical Engineering. Thus I have had no experience whatever as a senior high school student. I do not really know how the average high-schoolers react to this “hair problem,” so the point of view I offer here is strictly personal.The main reason why the authorities want to impose a prescribed hair style on the high-schoolers is that this would prevent them from being contaminated by bad social influences. But I can cite an example to show that the length or the style of one’s hair has no baleful effect at all on a student’s behavior. From the day they enter the school the students of the college are perfectly free to choose their own hair styles, yet nobody says the students here are spoiled by such freedom. Is this enough to justify the demand that high-schoolers be liberated from a prescribed hair style? 6} In accordance with a regulation a high school student here in Taiwan must have his or her hair cut short. Top-ranking officials in charge of education may have many reasons to justify this regulation, but the fact is that almost every student regards it with distaste. We go to school, not only to gain knowledge but also to learn how to tell right from wrong and acquire independent thinking. This is really what the educators or educational officials should be concerned about, certainly not the hair of the student.My personal experience tells me that the rule governing the student’s hair style is simply the cause of endless troubles between students and teachers. Why don’t they give the students the right to make their own decisions in this matter? If school officials insist on enforcing a hair style, it will only make the students more estranged from their teachers. We hope every boy or girl is a good student, but to pin this hope on a student’s close-cropped hair is certainly naive, if not absurd. {7} The hair style of high school student has long been a controversial issue.Authorities concerned insisted that the fixed hair style could make high school students look fresh and tidy. I myself was a high school student. I never thought this hair style had done me any good. When I was a high school student, my classmates often got into trouble with our military instructor, and it was not infrequent that they would be awarded a demerit simply because their hair was a little longer than the prescribed length. What is important, I should like to point out, is the mind under the hair, not the hair on the head. The authorities need not be afraid of the consequences of a cancellation of the hair regulation.I believe the law and order of our society does not depend on the length of one’s hair, especially on that of the high school students’. For many years we have tried to solve the problem of juvenile delinquency. All we need to do in this respect is to encourage them to give more attention to their education and allow them more leeway in their activities. To prescribe a hair style for the young is certainly the least admirable means to achieve this end. {8} I think it is all right for a high school student to wear a clean and plain hair, but it is not necessary to force him to have his hair cut very very short.Such kind of short hair is simply not a “style” at all. Some students often quarrel with their teachers and military instructors over the hair issue and there are even “battles” waged by the students to protect their hair. The love of beauty, we must admit, is human nature, and so is the care of one’s hair. In fact, not at all is the very very short hair beautiful to look at. What then is the kind of hair style fit for a high school student? In my opinion, a clean, simple, nice-looking, and moderately long hair will cut the mustard. Actually I am ery much in favor of high school students wearing their hair moderately long, for such a hair style will not only protect the head from exposure to severe cold of severe heat but will also make the wearer more nice-looking. Allowing the students to wear their hair this way will also help to put an end to many of the squabbles between them and their teachers or military instructors. The most important thing today for a high school student is, however, study; all other things are relatively unimportant. So we should not bother ourselves too much with this question. After all, beauty is but skin deep. ?

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What students think of the #NotoUSTHairPolicy campaign

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This is AI generated summarization, which may have errors. For context, always refer to the full article.

What students think of the #NotoUSTHairPolicy campaign

MANILA, Philippines – When the University of Santo Tomas ’ Faculty of Arts and Letters revived on September 1 its haircut policy – males cannot wear long hair or any accessories – the United Journalists of the Philippines-UST released a photo album on Facebook , showing students with different hairstyles.

Some believed one’s hairstyle was a means for self-expression; others argued that students can choose to follow the rule or simply leave the school. A smaller group was said that UST’s administration should be focusing on much bigger things. (READ: UST hair policy for students: This is not about vanity )

Hairstyle as self-expression

Readers against UST’s policy believe that a person’s hairstyle is his own business and that whatever a person chooses to do with his hair is his way of expressing himself.

Ted Tuvera commented, “The university is an avenue for one to determine his/her identity and, apparently, through fashion statements like hair styles.”

For Jyl Carson, having an alternative hairstyle “is not about being disobedient – it’s just being you.” She also argues against what she sees as the policy’s promotion of “prejudice against people who choose to express themselves through their physical appearance. It does not promote acceptance and respect.”

Follow the rules or leave

Some argued that enrolling in a school means following the rules that the institution sets. Jade Quiamco commented on the album: “ It is just that, the admin wants a more decent look for their students …. If you don ’ t like the rules, leave UST. ”

The comment sparked a debate.

Christian Burgos agreed with Quiamco, saying: “ It ’ s the school policy. Do you want to enroll in a school that let ’ s [sic] their student [sic] disobey their rules and regulations? ”

Bastin Adrias disagreed with Quiamco: “ Ano pa yung point ng pagtawag sa AB na Liberal Arts College kung ikakahon lang din pala ang mga estudyante sa mga norms na gusto ipataw ng UST sa kanila? (Why call AB Liberal Arts College if they are just going to box their students in whatever norms UST wants to impose?) ”

For other readers, the rules UST set is part of the training students receive in preparation for professional life. “It’s part of discipline. It’s part of getting you ready for the corporate world,” wrote Gayle Oyardo.

Rules, they said, are part of teaching students to become law-abiding citizen. It is “so much more than just the hair,” wrote Jan Ray Perez. He also said, “I think you either live with the re-implemented rules for the next couple of years and do whatever you want after graduating or just find another university.”

Bigger fish to fry

While the two sides argued over whether the policy promoted conformity, others questioned the point in the administration ’ s decision to pursue this matter over other, supposedly more important, issues.

Alex Arellano, for example, called out UST ’ s administration, saying, “ Don ’ t you have more important things to worry about than hair cuts and hair color? ”

Serene Christyear de Vera cites the issues of “ the missing 50K funds and the long delay of delivery of the type b uniform ” as issues in need of greater attention.

What do you think about the policy? Let us know in the comments section below. – Rappler.com

Bea Orante is a Rappler intern.

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The Impact of Haircut Policies in Asian Countries

Categories: Haircut Policy

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#NoToHaircutPolicy: Do School Dress Codes Discriminate Against LGBTQ Students?

Posted on Aug 26, 2022 Sep 12, 2022
4 minute read
Edgardo Toledo

Aug 26, 2022 • Edgardo Toledo

Schools are considered a child’s second home. It’s a place where they can meet new people, widen their perspectives, and express themselves. But some aspects of the Philippine education system can jeopardize a student’s self-expression. This precisely became a hot topic after one Facebook post went viral. Here’s everything you need to know.

The viral post

The beauty salon shared a before-and-after shot of three kids who had their haircut on Facebook, with a caption that read:

“salamat sa tiwala nyo mga anakshies na gupitan kayo.. alam kong pinaghirapan nyo magpahaba ng mga buhok nyo pero mas importante pa din ang sumunod sa school policies habang nag-aaral pa lang kayo..

maniwala kayo, kapag nakapagtapos kayo, kahit gaano pa kahaba nyo patubuin mga buhok nyo, kakayanin nyong makipagsabayan sa ibang tao kasi nakapagtapos kayo ng pag-aaral..

goodluck mga anakshies!”

As of this writing, the post has over 100K reactions and 30K shares.

Schools should respect their students’ bodily autonomy

Immediately, the post sparked conversations on how schools should let LGBTQIA+ students express themselves. “How one sees and expresses one’s self greatly affects one’s performance,” one user wrote. Inclusivity and respect for students will preserve their dignity, and letting students wear their hair however they want is part of that.

#SOGIEEqualityBillIpasa

Others took issue with the optimism in the salon’s post, as it does not reflect reality. The Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity and Expression “SOGIE” Equality Bill still has not been passed into law, which means that many LGBTQ people still face discrimination in the workplace.

Debunking 8 Disingenuous Arguments Against the SOGIE Bill Debunking 8 Disingenuous Arguments Against the SOGIE Bill Tim Henares | Nov 11, 2020

Is it just about discipline?

Miss trans global 2020 mela habijan speaks out .

In a series of tweets, Miss Trans Global 2020 Mela Habijan expressed her thoughts over the now controversial Facebook post. “Ano po bang mali sa aming buhok? Ano po bang mali sa isang transgender woman na gustong magsuot ng unipormeng pambabae o transgender man na hindi kumportableng mag-palda?” She said.

The content creator added that gender expression through clothing gives comfort and builds one’s confidence, which leads to productivity.

“Imagine Philippine educational institutions that help build students’ and teachers’ confidence. Imagine productive Filipino students and teachers because they are comfortable and confident.”

She also pointed out that while cisgender students and teachers can enter the school campus without any issues, there are trans folks that aren’t allowed to enroll or teach. Mela then questioned why DepEd couldn’t seem to implement the Gender-Responsive Basic Education Policy .

But what’s Gender-Responsive Basic Education Policy?

Also known as DepEd Order No. 37, series of 2017 , the Gender-Responsive Basic Education Policy aims to integrate the principles of gender equality, gender equity, gender sensitivity, non-discrimination, and human rights.

It also seeks to handle gender-based deterrents and forms of discrimination against marginalized groups to reduce disparities in basic education. The policy also aims to protect children against gender-based violence, abuse, bullying, and discrimination.

The Gender-Responsive Basic Education Policy is a step in the right direction. But as this viral post illustrates, we’ve still got a long way to go when it comes to the policy’s implementation.

8 Things LGBTQ+ People Are VERY Tired of Hearing 8 Things LGBTQ+ People Are VERY Tired of Hearing Edgardo Toledo | Jun 06, 2022

The challenges faced by Filipino LGBTQ+ students

This isn’t the first time Filipino LGBTQ+ students suffered discrimination due to school policies. Last June, four graduating transwomen were prohibited from joining their graduation ceremonies because of their long hair and wanting to attend in dresses.

However, DepEd NCR Director Wilfredo Cabral reiterated the Gender-Responsive Basic Education Policy. He advised the involved school authorities to let the students attend their graduation and wear clothes aligned with their gender identity without restricting students’ gender expression.

A call for DepEd to address issues that affect Filipino LGBTQ+students

You know where SOGIE discrimination begins? Schools. There are still certain schools that prohibit students from expressing themselves. Why is it so hard for DepEd and other private institutions to uphold fundamental human rights, including the right to express one’s identity? pic.twitter.com/8TtqOVzdBl — Fred Jzeidric (@fredjzeidric) August 25, 2022

According to a report from the Human Rights Watch , schools that discriminate against LGBTQ+ students cause them to skip classes or even drop out. The report also points out that the rigorous implementation of uniform and hair-length regulations force transgender students to follow out of fear.

DepEd has yet to release an official statement about the issue, but it’s clear they must take action. They have a policy on gender equality, and it should protect the students at all times.

Praying for a more progressive Philippines, and hopefully, it won’t be that long.

Do you think schools’ haircut policies are a form of discrimination? Let us know in the comments!

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‘Artificial Intelligence’? No, Collective Intelligence.

The artist and musician holly herndon explores the promise — and complications — of collaborating with a.i..

From New York Times Opinion, this is “The Ezra Klein Show.”

[MUSIC PLAYING]

We are already awash in crappy A.I. content. Some of it is crappy commercial A.I. content that wants to sell you things. Some of it is crappy A.I. art. And it got me interested amidst all this complaining. What does it mean right now to be making good A.I. art? And so I read this profile of the A.I. artist and musician Holly Herndon in “The New Yorker,” and then separately, this DJ I met mentioned her work to me. So I should check this out.

And so I went and listened to her 2019 album, “PROTO,” which was done alongside an A.I. voice trained on her voice and others. And I was walking to work when the song “Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt” came on.

[HOLLY HERNDON, “FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, DOUBT”]

And I just stopped walking.

What makes so much A.I. art so bad, in my opinion, is that it’s so generic. These are generative systems. We keep calling them generative. But generative is so — when we use that term, it usually means it helped you get somewhere new. But these systems are mimics. They help you go somewhere old. They can help us write or draw or compose like anyone else. But I find it much harder when using them to become more like yourself. And most of what I see coming out of people using them, it’s all riffing on others in this very obvious way.

What I like about Herndon’s art is she uses A.I. to become weirder, stranger, more uncanny, more personal. It’s going in the exact opposite direction. And some of her art questions the entire way these systems work. She and her partner, Mat Dryhurst, did this project at the Whitney Biennial this year, where they created an image generator based on images of Herndon, or at least what the A.I. system seemed to think she looked like, which is she’s got this very striking copper hair. And so the way it understood her was really around this striking copper hair. She is, as she put it, a haircut.

And so they manipulated these images and they made this A.I. system where anybody can generate any image in the style of what A.I. systems think Holly Herndon is. So you can generate an image of a house, and it’ll have this long flowing copper hair. And it’ll tag itself as an image of Holly Herndon. And because it’s on the Whitney Biennial, these images have a certain authority in the way these A.I. scrapers work.

And so as they are scraping the internet for images in the future, she is potentially poisoning their idea of what she is. She is taking control over the A.I.‘s idea of Holly Herndon. I find that fascinating, A.I. art that is acting as a kind of sabotage of A.I. systems and the lack of voice we have in how we appear in them. Along with a bunch of collaborators, Herndon has a lot of projects trying to blaze a trail and do not just good A.I. art, but fair economics and ethics. And so I wanted to have her on the show to talk about it. As always, my email, [email protected]. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Holly Herndon, welcome to the show.

Thanks. It’s great to be here.

So something I find fascinating about you is that you grew up singing in church choirs. Then you moved to Berlin after college and got deep into Berlin techno. And I think those are respectively the most human and the most inhuman forms of music that human beings make. So how did they shape you?

Yeah, that’s a really good question. I mean, I feel like I’m such a product of the environments that I’ve spent a lot of time in, so I’m really interested in folk singing traditions coming from East Tennessee. Of course, growing up in a town next to where Dolly Parton is from, she always loomed large. Then I spent a lot of time in Berlin. And so of course, electronic music and techno has played a really big part of my story. And then also moving to the Bay Area, where I got really deeply interested in technology.

I feel like even though techno might sound and does kind of have a synthetic palette and does sound maybe inhuman, I feel like the rituals that happen around the music are very human and very sweaty and very embodied. So I think if you experience that culture in person, it feels less inhuman.

But why does that magic happen? So I was in Berlin, and I was down in the sort of big room in the bunker, I would call it, as sort of the way it felt to me. And I would say the music felt like being inside of a machine gun but in a good way. And meanwhile, as you say, what’s happening around it — I mean, it was actually the most inhuman music I’ve ever heard. And I like electronic music. But what’s happening around it is so human. I mean, all these people engaged in this most physical, sweaty, smelly ritual of dancing together. How do you understand both the meaning and the function of it? Why does music like that create that kind of transcendence?

I mean, this might sound strange, but music is a kind of coordination technology. So 4/4 techno beat is maybe the most clear communication of that. It’s so easy to participate in. It’s fairly easy to make. It’s also fairly easy to dance to and understand. So I feel like as a kind of — if I want to call it a kind of protocol, it’s an easy way to communicate what to do in that scenario. So I think that that’s why people have organized around it so much.

When I go out and listen to the further reaches of techno, in Berlin, in New York, where I live, I’ll often find myself at some point in the night thinking every piece of sound in this music is a choice. And when that choice sounds very artificial, right, when it sounds like something so removed from somebody playing strings or somebody singing, I think this person wanted to communicate in this extraordinarily machine-like way.

And this has been happening for a long time, I mean, talk boxes and synthesizers and all of these technologies. And I’m curious, as somebody who’s made some of that music or is deeply, at least within the culture that has made it, what is appealing about that? I mean, you said it creates this very sweaty human ritual. But first, there is this transition of the person into something that does not sound like people. It sounds like music that robots might make. It sounds like music from a faraway culture.

Maybe there’s something about living in in such a technologically mediated world that makes us want to find how we fit into that as humans. And music is such a kind of innate part of being a human. I mean, as a performer of the laptop, I was always trying to find a way to make the laptop feel really embodied, because at the time, when I started performing a lot, there was this criticism that, oh, you could be checking your email, or this doesn’t really feel like a lively performance. So I started using my voice as a kind of input stream.

[HOLLY HERNDON, “FADE”]

And the thing that I found really liberating about using my voice in that way is that I could kind do anything to digitally manipulate my voice to make it be so much more than it is physically. But what I really enjoyed was using my voice as a kind of controller or data stream, and then it could do things that I couldn’t imagine once I put it in the laptop and was able to process it in specific ways.

So there’s something about trying to come to terms with the systems around us by working through them and working with them. Collaborating maybe helps us kind understand where we sit in that feedback loop.

So in a minute, I want to play a clip of a piece of music you made. But first, I want to talk about how you made it. So tell me about Spawn.

Spawn, who was our A.I. baby experiment. “PROTO” was released in 2019, and Spawn came about two years before that. So at the time, it was a very different time, especially for audio. A lot of the visual models were developed earlier.

But eventually, things got better. We started playing with a project called SampleRNN and some other software. And you’ll hear still from the from the stems that we might play later the vocal quality, the sound quality from 2017, 2018. To me, it sounded like the really early recordings that you can find on YouTube. I think it’s like the earliest audio recording. It sounds really scratchy and super low fidelity. That’s what the audio sounded like back in the day.

And so it was this real issue of trying to get the high fidelity recordings that I was doing with my ensemble in the studio to live in the same universe as this really scratchy, low-fi audio that I was generating through Spawn.

Well, why don’t we play a bit of that? Because you kindly shared the stems for the song “Swim.” And maybe we should start here by playing the ensemble, the sort of chorus you brought together to sing for the album.

[VOCALIZATION]

So that’s really beautiful and really human. And now on the other side, I want to play the Spawn track on its own.

What am I hearing when I hear that somewhat nightmarish Spawn there?

So Spawn was trained on the voices of the ensemble. And so back then, we couldn’t deal with polyphony, which means one — more than one note at a time. So what we had to do was break each line into an individual line, and then we would feed that line to Spawn, who would then sing it back through the voice of our ensemble. And I think we were feeding it through with a either a voice synthesizer or a piano. I can’t remember. It’s been so long.

But so we basically use this idea, which is called timbre transfer. So that’s where the computer learns the logic of one sound and kind of superimposes that onto the performance of another. So that’s what we did. We had the ensemble sing a variety of phrases. We trained Spawn on their voices. And then we did a timbre transfer. We fed her the line that we wanted her to sing. And then she sang it back to us.

And I think hearing that, one question you could have is, well, what do you need Spawn for? Why not just have a human being sing into a talk box or use a synthesizer or ableton? We can make people’s voices sound strange already, auto-tune. What is the value of Spawn here?

I think overall spawn has a unique timbral quality that I actually really love because it really is a snapshot in time. It doesn’t sound like that anymore. It sounds really clean and, yeah, really high fidelity. But at that period of time, it’s I almost have this like romanticism around that, almost like a vinyl hiss or a pop for that very particular period of time in machine learning research.

But also, I felt like I really needed to be making my own models and dealing with the subject directly in order to have a really informed opinion about it. And I’m really glad that I made that decision, because it’s informed so much of the work that I do today. Just even the very basic understanding that that a model’s output is so tied to the training data, the input, I don’t know that I would have come to the profundity of that had I not been training my own models. And that’s really informed all of the work that I’ve done since then. So I think sometimes you just have to deal with the technology in order to make informed work around that technology.

We’re going to come back to the profundity of that, because I actually think it’s really important. But I wanted to do two things before we do. One is to play a bit of the full song, “Swim,” so people can hear where this ended up.

[HOLLY HERNDON, “SWIM”]

And so then I want to play something you just released more recently using — I don’t know if you’d call this an updated Spawn, but we’re calling Holly+, which is this much more modern voice model trained on your voice that you had covered Dolly Parton’s Jolene.

[HOLLY HERNDON, “JOLENE”]

So obviously the unearthly quality is gone. What am I hearing? Who — what is singing?

So that is a voice model trained on my voice. I worked with some researchers in Barcelona in a studio called Voctro Labs at the time. And Holly Plus was born. And as you can hear, it’s leaps and bounds better, more high — higher fidelity than little Spawn.

So basically, that version of Holly+, there are multiple versions. There’s a version that can be performed in real time, but this particular version is a score-reading piece of software. So I basically just write out a score with the text written out in phonemes. And then the software spits out basically pitch-perfect performance of that song. And of course, it helps to have Ryan Norris playing a beautiful human guitar accompaniment.

That’s a use case that I’m fascinated by, that I imagine will become more and more common in the future, which is a model trained on a person that one can sort of almost autonomously create as if it were that person. You can imagine somebody training a model on all of my podcasts. And then the model generates questions they could ask somebody, or a model generated all of my columns and you can spit out a an Op-Ed.

What is your relationship with that? And do you see it as an extension of what you can do? Or do you see it as a kind of partner you can collaborate with? Or do you see it as just some version of you that makes you scale because you can’t take commissions to sing from everybody out in the public, but they can all go to Holly Plus and get it to sing on their behalf? Like, what is your relationship with this nascent other you, or at least other voice of you, that now exists in the world?

I think I’m probably an outlier in my relationship here because my practice involved so much vocal processing. So if you listen to movement —

[HOLLY HERNDON, “MOVEMENT”]

— or a platform —

[HOLLY HERNDON, “CHORUS”]

The albums before “PROTO” before I started working with machine learning, I was already taking my voice and kind of mangling it beyond recognition, turning it into a machine itself. So for me to make a model of my voice that felt like the natural next step in an already very kind of highly-mediated process with my voice, I don’t expect everyone to have that relationship. I don’t really see the Holly+ voice as something that replaces me in any way. It’s something that I have fun playing with. I can attempt to perform things that I wouldn’t normally be able to.

You know, I did a performance with Maria Arnal in Barcelona, and, I mean, that music is so difficult to perform. I could never sing that. She can do all of these amazing melismatic diva runs that I could never dream of, but my voice model could do it. And that was really fun. And it didn’t confuse me to think, OK, I can do that now. It was more just fun to hear myself do something that I know that I couldn’t do alone acoustically. So I guess for me, it’s maybe like an extension or an augmentation of my own self.

So what did Holly+ add to that cover of Jolene? I mean, you could have just sung a few tracks of harmony and added them above the melody. So what does A.I. mean to you in it specifically?

Well, I think that one is perhaps a little personal because growing up in east Tennessee, Dolly Parton was kind of the patron saint of that region. And the kind of music that I usually perform has very heavily processed vocals and is usually, it’s a bit more abstract than a Dolly Parton song. So it was almost like I wouldn’t afford myself that or allow myself that, but I would allow Holly+ to do it, because there was this kind of level of removal. It’s almost like Holly+ can perform things that I would be too bashful to perform myself.

Oh, that’s really interesting, the idea that having another version of yourself out there could give you license to try things you wouldn’t otherwise try.

Yeah, like Jolene. I mean, I love Jolene as a project, but it doesn’t have the same ghostliness and quality as the music on “PROTO,” which is why I didn’t release it as an album, you know. It’s just not as interesting, somehow.

I guess the other thing, there’s a question of meaning here that I’ve been circling in my own time playing around with A.I. I spent a bunch of time recently creating sort of A.I. friends and therapists. And, you’re trying to understand, like, the relational A.I.s that you can build now.

And on the one hand, I was amazed at technically how good a lot of them were. At the same time, I find I never end up coming back. I find it very hard to make the habit sticky or the relationship sticky.

When I sit with my friend or my partner, the fact that they are choosing to be there with me is separate from the things that they are saying. And an experience I’m having with a lot of A.I. projects is that the output is pretty good, right? Holly+ sings really well. Or the therapist friend I made on Kindroid texts in a way that if you had just shown me the text, I would not know it’s not a human being.

But the absence of there being the meaning of it that another person brings, the fact that I know it’s Holly+, like, it’s a cool project, but I’m not going to keep listening to it. The fact that I know the Kindroid can’t not show up to talk to me, that that’s a relationship I control totally. It robs the interaction of meaning in a way that makes it hard for me to keep coming back to it.

And so somebody who works a lot with the question of meaning and sees a lot of these A.I. efforts happening, how do you think about what imbues them with meaning, and in what cases they end up feeling hollow?

It’s really funny. We did a live performance from “PROTO,” I guess in 2019, in New York. And we had the ensemble on the stage. And afterwards someone came up to me and they said, “I really enjoyed the show, but I don’t understand what it has to do with A.I.”

And actually that was the biggest compliment that I could receive, because I wasn’t trying to project this kind of super future, you know, A.I., high-tech story.

I was trying to show all of the kind of human relationships and the human singing that goes into training these models. That’s something I was really trying to get to with that album is, you know, allowing the some of the things that the computer can do, you know, some of the coordination that it can do is remarkable. But it can also free us up to just be more human together, to really just focus on the parts that we really want to focus on, which is just enjoying that moment of singing on stage together.

I’m also not so interested in necessarily having an A.I. therapist. That’s not what I find interesting or compelling about the space. I’m interested in exploring some of the weirdnesses in how we as a society define different things. That’s the kind of stuff that I’m interested in, not having a kind of like A.I. chat pet.

I’ve heard you say that with A.I., it’s the model that’s the art, not necessarily the output of the model.

Yeah, that’s one thing that we’re exploring quite a bit. So one of the potentials around machine learning is that you’re not limited to just a single output. You can create a model of whether that’s my own singing voice or whether that’s my own image or likeness, and you can allow other people to explore the logic of that model and to prompt through your world.

So it’s almost kind of like inviting people into your subjectivity, or inviting someone into your video, the video game of your art. So I think it has a lot of potential to be interesting in a kind of collaborative way with your audience. One term that we’re often using is “protocol art,” basically understanding that any work that’s made is a kind of seed for infinite generations. So we’re trying to lean into that.

So, for example, if we make a sculpture, which we did a project called “Ready Weight,” we also make it available as a package with an embedding and a Lora and all the kind of tools that anyone would need to be able to explore that sculpture in latent space. Or, you know, when we made the model of my voice with Holly+, we made that publicly available so anyone could make work for that. So that’s the example of protocol art, where really, it becomes a collaborative experience between myself and the people who are engaging with my work.

And in a way, art’s kind of always a little bit like that. It’s a conversation between the work that you’re making and the viewer or the recipient, but that becomes a little bit more complicated and fun, I think, in an A.I. world.

You wrote something in 2018 that I think is worth exploring where you said that A.I. is a deceptive, over-abused term. “Collective intelligence” is more useful. Why?

Because I really do see it as a kind of aggregate human intelligence. It’s trained on all of us. Specifically, when you look at music, it’s trained on human bodies performing very special tasks. And I think it does humans a great disservice to try to remove that from the equation.

I think that’s why I like to draw a parallel, also, to choral music, because I see it as a kind of coordination technology in the same kind of lineage as group singing. I think it’s a part of our evolutionary story and I think it’s a great human accomplishment that should be celebrated as such.

I want to explore what changes when you emphasize the collectivity of these models, the fact that they are in some ways an aggregate of all of us versus the artificiality of them, right? Artificial intelligence, which really emphasizes no, there’s something that somebody has written into software over here. They’re unearthly. They’re a new kind of thing. And one thing is actually, I think, economic, that there’s this whole question about who gets compensated and who’s going to make the money off of this and what all this training data is going to end up doing economically.

And it does seem very different to me if you understand these as on some level, a societal output, something that’s built on a kind of commons as opposed to a tremendous leap and feat of technology that is the sort of individual result of software geniuses working in garages and office parks somewhere.

Yeah, I mean, that basically summarizes the work that I’ve been doing for the last several years. It’s kind of like shouting that from the rooftops. Because I think if you see it through that lens, then it becomes something really beautiful and something to be celebrated and also something that’s not entirely new. You know, we’ve been embarking on collective projects, the entirety of our humanity to make things that are bigger than ourselves. And so if we can find a way to make that work in the real world with the kind of future of the economy, then yeah, I think it behooves us to figure that out.

The not entirely new part feels important to me. The degree to which this is all a continuum feels often underplayed in conversations about A.I., about the future of work, about humans and machines. But there’s also a way in which you see the A.I. companies using this argument to say that they should be given much more free rein and much more full profits over the products of these models, because they say, look. We’re not doing anything different than any other artist or anyone ever has.

Scientists today work off of the collective body of knowledge of science before them. You know, Holly Herndon is influenced by folk music and choral music and German techno, and everybody is always absorbing what has come before them and mixing it into something new. That’s all we’re doing. We’re not doing something new. We’re not making a copyright infringement.

So how do you understand the effort to use the collectivity, right? The fact that human beings have always been in collective projects, but we do give people a lot of individual ownership and authorship over their works from what might be different here in the scale and the nature of what these models are doing.

So, OK, I think that there’s a middle ground that can work for everyone, that can allow people to experiment and have fun with this technology while also compensating people. So spawning is a neologism that I like to use to kind of describe what’s happening here. And it’s a 21st century corollary to sampling, but it’s really distinctly different. And that difference, I think, is really important. It’s different in what it can do and also how it came about.

So what it can do, we’ve kind of gone into that already. You know, you train a model, the kind of logic of one thing to be able to perform new things through that logic. So it’s distinctly different from sampling, which is really like a one-to-one reproduction of a sound created by someone else that can then be processed and treated to make something new. But with spawning, you can actually perform as someone else based on information trained about them. So that’s distinctly different.

But also the way that it comes about, with sampling, it’s this one-to-one reproduction. With spawning, it’s a little bit more of a gray area in terms of intellectual property because you’re not actually making a copy. The machine is ingesting that media, if you want to call it looking at, reading, listening to, learning from. So I kind of land in that — I like to call it the “sexy middle ground” between people who are all for open use for everything and people who want to have really strict I.P. lockdown.

And so that’s one of the reasons why spawning, then, kind of mutated even further into an organization, which is something that I co-founded with three other people, Mat Dryhurst, Patrick Hoepner and Jordan Meyer, to try to figure out this messy question of essentially data manners. How do we handle data manners around A.I. training? Because what’s happening right now isn’t working for everyone.

Are there experiments that you find exciting or that you’ve conducted that you found the results of them promising?

Yeah. I mean, I think Holly+ was a really fun experiment because people then actually used my voice and we were able to, you know, sell some works through that and generate a small profit, but enough to be able to continue to build the tools for the community. So that was a fun experiment that I think really worked. And there’s one experiment that I’m running right now that I’m really excited about. My partner, Mat Dryhurst and I had an exhibition at the Serpentine London in October, and as part of that, we are recording choirs across the U.K. I think there’s 16 in total, and they’re joining a data trust. And we’ve hired a data trustee to pilot this idea of governance where we’re trying to work out some of the messy issues around how a data trust might work. And then we’ll negotiate with that data trust directly as to how we can use their data in the exhibition and moving forward.

I think it’s a really fun experiment, and it’s also because it’s singing and it’s choral music, it’s not really sensitive health data. We can really experiment and try out different ways to make this work in a way that’s not dealing with such sensitive information. So I’m really excited to see how people engage with that and how much do people really want to deal with the kind of day-to-day governance of their data. That’s also a big question.

So you were saying earlier that often the models are the art, but in this case, the governance is the art.

You know, in this case, I think the model and the governance and the protocol around it are all the art.

This idea of control is interesting, though. I mean, so it came out a while ago that Facebook and Meta had been training its A.I. on a huge cache of pirated books. And I think my book was in there. My wife’s book was in there. Like, the books of virtually everybody I know were in there. And so, a bunch of authors sued. And I also felt some part of me, like, I wanted to be paid for my inclusion. But I didn’t want to not be included in all of these. And it reminds me a bit of social media where at a certain point, whether or not you wanted to be on social media or not, it was sort of important that you had something representing you there, right?

It could be not your real photo, right? You could have some control over it, but if you didn’t do it, then you had absolutely no control over what you appeared as online. And it probably wasn’t plausible. You could appear as nothing online. So maybe something you didn’t want would be your top Google search result.

And here it’s going to get even weirder because there isn’t really — you can’t have your home page in the artificial intelligence model. All you are is training data. And so there’s something very strange about this. You know, if before all you were was kind of a profile, which was a very flattened version of you, now your training data — which is a very warped version of you. And this question of how do you have any control over that data, like if you want to participate but you want some definition over how you participate, there’s no real obvious avenue towards that.

There’s none at the moment, but I think that that’s coming. I think people will opt in under terms that they feel comfortable with to be able to shape the way that they appear in this new space. I don’t think it’s tenable that people have no agency over how they appear in the future of the internet.

That feels idealistic to me. I mean, I feel like we’ve been we’ve been going through an internet for a long time where I would have said this level of data theft or use is not tenable. This level of surveillance is untenable. This level of flattening, the way we get each other to treat each other in social media, it doesn’t feel like this is going to hold.

Like, I am amazed that people are still on X. As hostile as that platform has become to many of them, it’s just so impossible to imagine leaving something happening that they will accept something they really feel angry about. They really feel like the way it is run is hostile to them, that it is degraded. But, you know, what are you going to do? I’m amazed at how powerful the “what are you going to do” impulse is in life.

Well, I mean, I totally get that. But what we decided to do was to try to build a universal opt out standard. And it’s actually gaining traction. And there’s precedent in the E.U. A.I. Act. Ideally, it would be something that would be from the beginning, all training data would have been at. You know, people would have been asked permission from the offset, but that’s not how things played out. So now we’re in a position where we’re building tools where people can really easily opt out the data that they don’t want to have included in these models.

We have an A.P.I. where you can install that on your website and easily have everything on your website not be included in crawling. So I do think that there are things that we can do. It requires a little bit of legislation. It requires a little bit of diplomacy. But I don’t think that we should just throw up our hands and say, OK, it’s over. They should just have everything.

You know, if we do have a situation where we’re able to get the opt out as a kind of standard, then I think you can start to build an economy around an opt in. Something that I’m really proud of, we just announced Source.Plus. So I’m not trying to shill here, but I think this is a really important part of this conversation where we put together a data set of all public domain data, and it’s huge. And people should be training their base models there. And then you can allow people to opt in to fine tune their models and create an economy around that.

If you have a public domain base layer model, then you can actually create an economy around that. But I don’t think we should give up.

I definitely agree. I don’t think we should give up. For a lot of people, they need to make a living out of the work they’re doing.

One thing that I find inspiring about the idea of thinking of it as a collective intelligence is it maybe points the way towards the idea that there’s modes of collective ownership, or modes of collective compensation. And at least in the space of art, when you’re thinking about this idea that you might have your voice out there for anybody to use, I think for a lot of people, that’s scary, right?

I mean, we’re very used to business models that are about nobody can use this thing of mine unless they pay me, right? We have patents, we have copyrights. What does that spark for you? What if we — what are the ways to do this in a more collective open source way that you think might work to make it possible for people to live, but also to create? Well,

I think first and foremost, it should not be a one-size-fits-all solution. I mean, you know, we’re talking about art. And that encompasses so many different practices that function economically in so many different ways. That’s something that was really devastating, I think, when it came to streaming. Streaming was really revolutionary and wonderful for a lot of people, but it was really devastating for a lot of other people because everything had to have the same economic logic as pop music.

And a lot of experimental music doesn’t follow that per play valuation logic. A lot of experimental music is about the idea, and you just need access to that idea once. You don’t need to listen to it on repeat. And so if the access to that idea costs a fraction of a cent, that’s going to be really difficult to pay for. It’s almost more you almost need more like a movie model where you pay a little bit more to gain access to that idea.

I think what’s really needed is that people have the ability to create whatever subcultures and whatever kind of economic models work for their subcultures and aren’t squeezed into a kind of sausage factory where everything has to follow the same logic.

So I know you and your partner are working on this book for this forthcoming exhibition that has, I think, the most triggering possible title to two people in my industry, “All Media is Training Data.” What’s the argument there?

Yeah, so this is a book that’s a series of commissioned essays and interviews between me and Mat about our approach to A.I. and data over the past 10 years. I do realize that this is kind of triggering for a lot of people, but I think it’s something that’s worth kind of recognizing. You know, as soon as something becomes captured in media, as soon as something becomes machine legible, it has the potential to be part of a training canon.

And I think that we need to think about what we’re creating moving forward with that new reality. You know, a lot of the work that we’re doing around the exhibition is we’re creating training data deliberately. So we’re treating training data as artworks themselves. I’m writing a song book that a collective of choirs across the UK will all be singing from, and those songs were written specifically to train an A.I. So all of the songs cover all of the phonemes of the English language so you can really — the A.I. can get the full scope of the sound, of each vocalist.

So we’re kind of playing with this idea of making deliberate training data, kind of — we like to call them mind children that we’re sending to the future.

I want to talk about what’s triggering in it for a minute. Because I think when people hear that, they might think media in the sense of the news. And I’m actually least worried about the news, because the news is where we’re covering new things that happened that are not in the training data.

But media, if you think about it broadly, right, visual media and music and all the other things human beings create, I think when people hear all media’s training data, what they hear is — everything we do will be replaceable, right? That the A.I. is going to learn how to do it and it’s going to be able to spit it back at us and then it doesn’t need us anymore.

When we become the training data, we’re sort of training our replacement, right? Like, the sort of very grim stories that will come out of factories before they outsource somewhere, where people are training. You know, the people are going to replace them at a lower cost. Is that how you see it? If you’re training data, does that mean you’re replaceable?

Art is a very complex cultural web. It’s a conversation. It’s something that’s performed. It’s a dialogue. It’s situated in time and place. We wouldn’t confuse a poster of the Mona Lisa for the Mona Lisa. Those are two different things. So I’m not worried about artists being replaced or about, you know, infinite media, meaning that artists have no role in meaning-making anymore. I think that the meaning-making becomes all the more important.

I do think we have to contend with a future where we do have infinite media, where the single image is perhaps no longer carrying the same weight as it did before. So yeah, there are some things to contend with, but I think that we won’t be replaced and I think it’ll be weird and wonderful.

There are a bunch of programs that are coming out now that use A.I. to generate this sort of endless amount of pretty banal music for a purpose. So I have this one I downloaded called “Endel,” and it’s like, do you want music for focus? Do you want it to sleep? Do you want it to — And it’s fine. If I heard it on one of those playlists on Spotify, I wouldn’t think much of it.

EVENING ENERGY RISE”]

And I think it points towards this world where I think the view is, we’re going to know what we want. And what we’re going to want is a generic version of it. And we’re going to be able to get it in kind of vast quantities forever. But you’re an artist and you said something in an interview I saw you give about how reality always ends up weirder. It always mutates against what people are expecting of it.

And so I wonder how much you suspect or see the possibility of the sameness that A.I. makes possible, the kind of endless amount of generic content, leading to some kind of backlash where people actually get weirder in response, both weirder with these projects, but also more interested in things created by humans in the same way that a lot of artisanal food movements got launched by the rise of fast food.

I mean, how much do you think about backlash and the desire for differentiation as something that will shape cultures and software here?

Well, there’s a lot in there. I mean, the backlash has been huge. I think that A.I. has certainly joined the ranks of culture wars and especially on Twitter. So I think the backlash is already there. But I think we’re also in really early days. So some of the examples that you gave, I feel like they’re kind of trying to please everyone. And as we move into a situation where your specific taste profile is being catered to more, I think it will feel less mid and feel more bespoke.

One direction where some of this can go, I think a lot of people are really focused on prompting at the moment because that’s how we’re interfacing with a lot of models. But in the future, it might look more like, you know, maybe you have a kind of taste profile where the model understands your tastes and your preferences and the things that you are drawn to and just kind of automatically generates whatever media that would kind of like please you.

So the kind of production to consumption pipeline is kind of collapsed in that moment. One of the things that I always appreciated as a young person growing up was hearing things that I didn’t like and didn’t understand, and that was something I always found really difficult with algorithmic recommendation systems, is I just kept getting fed what it already knew that I liked.

But, you know, when I was just being exposed to new music as a young person, I really needed to hear things that I didn’t like to expand my palate and understanding of what’s possible in music. And so that’s one thing that I think you could just kind of have a stagnation of taste if people are constantly being catered to. So I think people will crave something different or will crave to be challenged. Some people won’t, but some people will.

One of the things that occurred to me while I was looking through a lot of your work was that what I enjoyed about it was that you were using the relationship with the generative system to make yourself and make the work stranger. And that felt refreshing to me because my experience using ChatGPT or Claude or anything, really, so often is that it makes me more generic.

And that there’s this way in which A.I. feels like it is this great flattening. It’ll give you a kind of lowest common denominator of almost anything that human beings have done before, and that the danger of that feels to me like it’s a push toward sameness whereas a lot of your art feels to me like a push towards weirdness and a kind of sense that you can interact with different versions of these systems in a less sanded-down way and find something that neither a human or a machine could create alone. Is that a reasonable read of what you’re doing? Is there something there?

Yeah, I think that’s largely because I use my own training data. I create training data specifically for this purpose of training models rather than using something that’s just laid out for me. I think you get a lot of mid or averaging from these really large public models, because that’s basically the purpose.

You know, it’s supposed to kind be a catchall, but I’m not interested in the catchall. I’m interested in, you know, this weird kind of vocal expression or I’m interested in this other weird thing. And so that’s what I really want to create training data around and really focus on for whatever my model is. So I think people should just get into training their own models.

I want to end by going back to a song from “PROTO.” And it’s one of the stranger songs on the album. And I thought maybe we could just talk about what it’s doing and people could hear it. So why we play a clip of “Godmother“?

[RHYTHMIC SQUEAKING]

What’s happening there?

OK, so, yeah, when I delivered that single to 480, I was like, here’s a single for the next album. They were like, um, OK, what do we do with this? So this is, I guess, a really early voice model trained on my voice. So if you compare that to the Jolene song, that’s basically how far we’ve come in the last five years, which I think is just remarkable. It’s — the speed is incredible.

So I trained Spawn on my voice, my singing voice, and then I fed Spawn stems from a collaborator of mine named Jlin. And so Spawn is attempting to sing Jlin’s stems through my voice. And Jlin’s music is very percussive. It’s mostly percussion sounds, so it ends up being this kind of almost like a weird beatboxing kind of thing because it’s trying to make sense of these sounds through my voice.

Well, here, why don’t we play a clip of the Jlin? This is one of my favorite songs from her. It’s called “The Precision of Infinity.”

[JLIN & PHILIP GLASS, “THE PRECISION OF INFINITY”] And so, yeah, it’s not that it’s a machine, it’s just something that a human being cannot do quite on their own. I mean, there’s like a Philip Glass sample in there. It’s beautiful. But I don’t know. It’s funny when you say that that Spawn feels so old because something I like about it is it feels very — compared to a lot of what’s coming out now, its strangeness feels much more modern. It feels truer to how A.I. feels to me than the much more polished things we’re currently hearing or seeing, which it’s like this thing has exploded in all of its weirdness. And all this effort is being made to make it seem normal.

And I think the reason “PROTO” sounded very current to me when I heard it for the first time this year is it in sounding abnormal, it feels more actually of this moment, which feels very strange even as everybody keeps trying to make it seem not that strange.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like at the time I was — this A.I. conversation has been going for so long. The hype was kind of already started back then. And I feel like so many things that were being marketed as A.I., it was kind of misleading what the A.I. was doing or how sophisticated things were. So at the time, a lot of people were creating A.I. scores and then having either humans perform them or having really slick digital instruments perform them.

And so it was giving this impression that everything was really slick and polished and finished, and that’s why we decided to focus on audio as a material, specifically because you could hear how kind of scratchy and weird and unpolished things were at that time. And that’s — I wanted to meet the technology where it was, and that required a whole mixing process with Marta Salogni, who’s an amazing mixing engineer in London, to try to get the human bodies and the slick studio to occupy the same space as the kind of crunchy lo-fi Spawn sounds.

But it was really important to me that I wasn’t trying to do the whole smoke and mirrors of like, this is some glossy future thing that it that it wasn’t, because I actually found the weirdness in there so much more beautiful.

As somebody who has now been for years playing around with models and working in these more sort of decentralized possibilities, I think it’s easy if you’re outside this and don’t have any particular A.I. software engineering expertise, as I don’t — as I think most of my listeners don’t — and you see, well, there’s models by OpenA.I., by Google, by Facebook — it feels like that no human being can do this, right? Companies getting billions of dollars.

How are you able to participate in this world of models? How much expertise do you need? How do you figure out what are the interesting projects, right? If somebody wants to understand this kind of world of homebrew A.I., so to speak, how did you start, and where do they start?

That’s a really good question. I mean, I think the landscape has changed so much since I started. I would say, you know, first thing, you can interact with publicly available models. And once you kind understand how those are working, then I would just do the really boring work of reading the academic research papers that are tedious. Take your time, drink a coffee, watch the YouTube video where they presented at a conference and maybe some people asked questions and that that helps to flesh it out.

This was our process. It’s been really, really kind of messy. And yeah, we didn’t have a lot of hand-holding, but I think if you’re really interested in learning more, the information is out there. You just kind of have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. I think that’s a nice place to end. So always our final question, what are three books you would recommend to the audience? OK, so Reza Negarestani wrote a book called “Intelligence and Spirit.” It’s a pretty dense philosophical book about intelligence and spirituality that I think is really great. On a lighter side, “Children of Time” by Adrian Tchaikovsky is a really enjoyable A.I. science fiction about intelligent, genetically-modified spiders.

One of my favorite books.

Yeah, it’s so good. So you kind see the kind of society and technology that a super intelligent spider society would build, which I love. And then there’s a book called “Plurality” that was led by Glen Weyl and Audrey Tang and a wide community of contributors. I also contributed a small part to this book. It’s about the future of collaborative technology and democracy, and it was actually written in an open, collaborative, Democratic way, which I think is really interesting. So check it out.

Holly Herndon, thank you very much.

Thanks so much. This was really fun.

This episode of The Ezra Klein Show is produced by Annie Galvin, fact-checking by Michelle Harris.” Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. We’ve original music by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser, and special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

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Produced by ‘The Ezra Klein Show’

A.I.-generated art has flooded the internet, and a lot of it is derivative, even boring or offensive. But what could it look like for artists to collaborate with A.I. systems in making art that is actually generative, challenging, transcendent?

Holly Herndon offered one answer with her 2019 album “ PROTO .” Along with Mathew Dryhurst and the programmer Jules LaPlace, she built an A.I. called “Spawn” trained on human voices that adds an uncanny yet oddly personal layer to the music. Beyond her music and visual art , Herndon is trying to solve a problem that many creative people are encountering as A.I. becomes more prominent: How do you encourage experimentation without stealing others’ work to train A.I. models? Along with Dryhurst, Jordan Meyer and Patrick Hoepner, she co-founded Spawning , a company figuring out how to allow artists — and all of us creating content on the internet — to “consent” to our work being used as training data.

[You can listen to this episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” on the NYT Audio App , Apple , Spotify , Amazon Music , YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts .]

In this conversation, we discuss how Herndon collaborated with a human chorus and her “A.I. baby,” Spawn, on “PROTO”; how A.I. voice imitators grew out of electronic music and other musical genres; why Herndon prefers the term “collective intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”; why an “opt-in” model could help us retain more control of our work as A.I. trawls the internet for data; and much more.

You can listen to our whole conversation by following “The Ezra Klein Show” on the NYT Audio App , Apple , Spotify , Google or wherever you get your podcasts . View a list of book recommendations from our guests here .

(A full transcript of this episode is available here .)

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

Follow the New York Times Opinion section on Facebook , Instagram , TikTok , WhatsApp , X and Threads .

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